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A thank you to Brexiteers.

gosub said:
Go back and read the stuff I wrote at the time. I had thought UK would coalesce around around an in Single Market outside EU position, (slightly ahead of EU offering it in their now heavily delayed next series of reforms). As it was, when it was finally debated in Parliament that option ended up being 1st thing dismissed.

There is so much about Brexit where you end up thinking why would you do it like that? But it is was it is..
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Yep, just didn’t realise you meant it didn’t go as you yourself hoped.
 
I think it's still technically possible for Johnson to take steps toward rejoining, which is what ASAP implies to me - though of course it's hard to imagine even Johnson becoming addled enough to try it.
 
gosub said:
Definitely an air ofl'esprit de l'escalier about things like Ali Campbell's paper
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I think the key difference is that the anti-suprastate lobby was always concerned that the electorate might be tempted by membership, whereas the pro-EU establishment never really believed that they'd lose the electorate.
 
brogdale said:
I think the key difference is that the anti-suprastate lobby was always concerned that the electorate might be tempted by membership, whereas the pro-EU establishment never really believed that they'd lose the electorate.
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TBF, the anti-EU establishment didn't really believe that the pro-EU one would lose the electorate, either, which is presumably why they went for so much misinformation, graft, lying, etc., and why they're in such a mess now and unable to cash the cheques they wrote during the campaign...
 
existentialist said:
TBF, the anti-EU establishment didn't really believe that the pro-EU one would lose the electorate, either, which is presumably why they went for so much misinformation, graft, lying, etc., and why they're in such a mess now and unable to cash the cheques they wrote during the campaign...
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Maybe; I've not really read around much about what the Leave campaign really thought about their prospects...but the opinion polling in the few years preceding the vote might have given them reason to believe?

1641288033904.png

Whereas, I'm lead to believe that the polling immediately preceding the 1975 plebiscite gave ratification a clear lead:

1641288135331.png
 
Mezzer said:
Are these figures Brexit related? Given that there are no reciprocal agreements now in place with other EU countries for return to place of first landing? Migrant crossings: 2021 marks record year with more than 28,300 people entering UK via English Channel
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I don’t know if it makes sense to say that more people are coming here as a result of brexit meaning the end of the rule that they could be returned to the EU country they first set foot in. I kind of doubt it but maybe.
 
bimble said:
I don’t know if it makes sense to say that more people are coming here as a result of brexit meaning the end of the rule that they could be returned to the EU country they first set foot in. I kind of doubt it but maybe.
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The return scheme in the EU wasn't huge numbers. The 'send them back' policy is a non-starter anyway, no country in Europe is going to agree the UK can ship back asylum applicants because they travelled through their country - the subject is as toxic in Europe as it is here.

Given how few failed applicants are actually returned home by the Home Office their current plan to reject out of hand people who travel here by boat seems more of a PR excercise than a real attempt to handle the situation.

The Tories are trapped in a cage of their own making, if people weren't involved it would be very funny to watch.
 
bemused said:
The return scheme in the EU wasn't huge numbers. The 'send them back' policy is a non-starter anyway, no country in Europe is going to agree the UK can ship back asylum applicants because they travelled through their country - the subject is as toxic in Europe as it is here.

Given how few failed applicants are actually returned home by the Home Office their current plan to reject out of hand people who travel here by boat seems more of a PR excercise than a real attempt to handle the situation.

The Tories are trapped in a cage of their own making, if people weren't involved it would be very funny to watch.
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I don’t know, maybe it suits them fine, going on about how they’ll make wave machines to push immigrants back into the sea and how it’s all France’s fault & so on is probably their most popular policy and they’ve not got much else to sell.
 
bimble said:
I don’t know, maybe it suits them fine, going on about how they’ll make wave machines to push immigrants back into sea and how it’s all France’s fault & so on is probably their most popular policy and they’ve not got much else to sell.
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Every time they make a boat-related announcement it hilariously backfires when a Farage type posts a picture of a boat emptying people onto a beach the people the Tory party are dog-whistling moan the government has gone 'woke' and/or lying to them.
 
bimble said:
I'm sure everyone here will enjoy this article as much as i did.

Brexiters now worry about the judgment of history

<a rel="me" href="https://mastodon.online/@ChrisGrey">Mastodon</a>
chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com
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Agree with most of that, but a general error of perspective I think it makes is hinted at here:

"However, this latest spate of [negative] commentary [from pro-Brexiters] about the unfulfilled promises of Brexit does not mean that Brexiters have wised up to its realities. What the likes of Farage, Smith, and Hannan are engaged in is a rear-guard defence of their project which, whilst to a degree accepting that it hasn’t delivered, is also a doubling-down on the fantasies that it could, with one more push, be delivered. And, moreover, that if the government were sufficiently committed to Brexit then that final push would be forthcoming."

<that's true in essence, people like Farage are excellent at applying pressure to get their political way, but I think it misunderstands the timescale of what is happening here - its not "rearguard" at all - 'deviation' and deregulation won't happen overnight, especially so whilst the legalities with the EU are still up in the air (in regard NI). This is just the next phase of the campaign. There's no big readjustment in their minds necessary to warrant "doubling down".

Brexit jockeying, moaning and pressuring will go on for a long time yet and its wrong to see it as a sign of weakness: they have already won all the major battles and the pressure must be maintained to keep the project moving in the direction they want. We know what Farage and his ilk want, it includes seeing a US style health service. That and the deeper deregulation and privatisation of everything else they can get their hands on. Theres a long way to go yet, but they want to get there as soon as possible. Trump losing the election and Covid have slowed the project down, but there's no doubt where they want to go. The next Republican-Conservative conjunction will be telling.

Of course they could give zero shits about economic/social hardships normal people might be experiencing short term, or even general GPD contraction - they're not feeling it - stock holders are getting minted right now - but they do need to keep the general perception of what is happening sweet so as to grease the wheels onwards to their ultimate goal. They must fear the possibility of farmers, fishers, and exporters mobilising behind a rejoin the customs union position, but that seems very unlikely. Their project all looks fairly on track to me, short of the possible collapse of the union.

The article suggests their position is in retreat - seems nothing of the kind to me. Johnson is being a little too conscientious by their measure - Im sure Sunak will be a better fit for them - see his Charter Cities for a prototype.
 
if Farage and friends really want to see a US style health service, if that's their 'ultimate goal' or was a part of their vision for brexit all along (i'm not convinced of this) even so hardly anybody else (voters i mean) wants to see that do they.
Idk, anyhow the writer there is convinced that 'any programme of major regulatory divergence are only achievable at such huge cost that it would require an even more reckless government than this one to undertake it', and that's the main reason why he think brexit's promises were always destined to fail.
 
bimble said:
if Farage and friends really want to see a US style health service, if that's their 'ultimate goal' or was a part of their vision for brexit all along (i'm not convinced of this)
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Why not? have you not seen the video of him saying such? or the leaked dossier? Or the ongoing buy up of surgeries by US companies. Liam Fox's provisional trade deal and Sunak meeting with US healthcare companies a couple of weeks ago should be all the warning we need. But all that aside, what do you think neoliberal Tories want for the UK? Even without the evidence this is what we should expect after decades of previous.
 
bimble said:
if Farage and friends really want to see a US style health service, if that's their 'ultimate goal' or was a part of their vision for brexit all along (i'm not convinced of this) even so hardly anybody else (voters i mean) wants to see that do they.
Idk, anyhow the writer there is convinced that 'any programme of major regulatory divergence are only achievable at such huge cost that it would require an even more reckless government than this one to undertake it', and that's the main reason why he think brexit's promises were always destined to fail.
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I have seen farage say that in front of parliament. But please ignore what they actually say, obvs they don't mean it :facepalm:
 
Why would you have to brexit in order to further privatise the health service though? You don't, so i'm not convinced the two things are really related. And anyway whatever they may want they know that the voters are definitely not with them on this one. They even stuck the NHS on the brexit bus because they know how people feel about it.
 
bimble said:
the writer there is convinced that 'any programme of major regulatory divergence are only achievable at such huge cost that it would require an even more reckless government than this one to undertake it', and that's the main reason why he think brexit's promises were always destined to fail.
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its called successive tory governments
 
bimble said:
Why would you have to brexit in order to further privatise the health service though? You don't,
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its a fair point, but its part of a more general programme and ideological drive to deregulate and privatise, of which EU rules were a hinderance. The NHS sell off is symbolic of the wider picture
 
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