A thank you to Brexiteers.

[brogdale]

If the right to moan was ever under threat I would defend it. However, I wouldn't go as far as to advocate a position based on 'The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to moan about it.'

This isn't philosophy, though.

 

[bimble]

i disagree with the whole framing of people as defined by how they voted in 2016, we all (well some of us) live here, so it's in all our interests to try to think of ways to make it not just shit.
Looks to me like the whole thing is a sort of experiment in reversing a small part of globalisation, which it is possible to see ways in which it could have upsides, but as always its not the Idea of brexit we are dealing with any more but this particular bungled version led by these particular arseholes that is actually happening.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Isn't the shouting into the void pretty much explained by the fact, from the remain perspective, we are "going nowhere"? This was a binary outcome which given lifespans etc. is effectively permanent. For those that define themselves politically as being on the losing side of this outcome I really don't see how they can be expected to produce "a cogent analysis"? What is there for them to analyse?

But that’s not true though is it. There are massive questions: what will a post neo-liberal Britain look like, climate questions, the post Brexit economy and work etc etc. Much of Remain seems stuck, unable to move beyond its defeat and wanting to replay the game over and again. A cogent analysis doesn’t mean it ‘has to fix Brexit’. It means accepting the result and engaging with now rather than trying to shoehorn every issue in the lens of 2016

 

[bimble]

what will a post neo-liberal Britain look like

you think this is made more likely by the outcome of the referendum?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

you think this is made more likely by the outcome of the referendum?

I think globalisation is visibly failed as an economic system. America is already beginning to think about the future. Globalisation's expansionist drive is unsustainable politically (as the rise of populist revolts everywhere shows) and also economically (global supply chain disruption, stagnating domestic demand).

Ironically the EU will have a much bigger challenge adjusting to that fact as it’s entire economic structures are meant to facilitate and accommodate globalisation. But, at base, and like so many other issues it’s not a Brexit question, it’s more complex and multi-layered.

 

[Pickman's model]

i disagree with the whole framing of people as defined by how they voted in 2016, we all (well some of us) live here, so it's in all our interests to try to think of ways to make it not just shit.
Looks to me like the whole thing is a sort of experiment in reversing a small part of globalisation, which it is possible to see ways in which it could have upsides, but as always its not the Idea of brexit we are dealing with any more but this particular bungled version led by these particular arseholes that is actually happening.

yeh but you're making the classic error of thinking that your 'not shit' is other people's 'not shit' too.

this is not any sort of experiment in reversing a small part of globalisation, as the 'global britain' wankery of the government might indicate

 

[bimble]

yeh but you're making the classic error of thinking that your 'not shit' is other people's 'not shit' too.

this is not any sort of experiment in reversing a small part of globalisation, as the 'global britain' wankery of the government might indicate

nah, i'm pretty sure my shit looks much the same as yours, and its always best to ignore the government's statements.

 

[brogdale]

But that’s not true though is it. There are massive questions: what will a post neo-liberal Britain look like, climate questions, the post Brexit economy and work etc etc. Much of Remain seems stuck, unable to move beyond its defeat and wanting to replay the game over and again. A cogent analysis doesn’t mean it ‘has to fix Brexit’. It means accepting the result and engaging with now rather than trying to shoehorn every issue in the lens of 2016

As you probably know, I didn't engage with the plebiscite that 'offered' a choice between 2 visions of how to accelerate regressive wealth transfer. That said, I do appreciate that the electorate were encouraged to regard the UK's membership of the supra state as the over-arching issue of our times and then divide on the binary choice. So it's no surprise that folk still find themselves thinking in those terms and, as you say, the losers moaning about the outcome. After all, the very reason that the right party of capital found itself so riven that the plebiscite was the only solution they could discern, was that the 1973(5) losers had conducted a campaign of moaning about the outcome since then.

We're also dealing with people attuned to electoral outcomes that play out in 5 year cycles in which HMLO are constitutionally obliged to 'moan' about the outcome. It's just that in the case of a plebiscite there is no official opposition, is there? For Brexit loyalists to moan about the moaning looks suspiciously like trying to close down criticism of the outcome they won.

 

[Badgers]

 

[philosophical]

To clarify three things: I’m not suggesting Remainers solve ‘the problems caused by Brexit’. Talking of which the ‘problems caused by Brexit’ are either illusory, short term, pre-existing structural or political economy matters exacerbated by it or a combination of all of them. Remainer accounts consistently overlook this paradigm and lack seriousness and credibility as a result.

Finally, if the sum of remain thinking is ‘everything is shit, and it’s all the fault of Brexit’ then it’s going nowhere. At some point someone on your side is going to need to produce a cogent analysis of where things are and what they think should be done about it; starting from the pre-existing order and properly taking into account all of the material factors. A grown up and serious account. No sign of it yet though.

Which category is the land border in Ireland? Illusory, short term, pre existing, structural, or a matter of political economy? As you don’t expect a remainer like me to solve that problem, what is your solution?

 

[Pickman's model]

nah, i'm pretty sure my shit looks much the same as yours, and its always best to ignore the government's statements.

if you read my post instead of simply looking at the words you'll see we're not talking about shit but 'not shit'. this 'not shit' isn't excrement.

as for ignoring the government's statements, they should by no means be ignored, not because they're full of good sense and advice, but on the basis of sun tzu's sage advice 'know thine enemy' - and you learn a lot from what they say.

 

[ska invita]

the ‘problems caused by Brexit’ are either illusory, short term, pre-existing structural or political economy matters exacerbated by it or a combination of all of them.

Id love to see your list of which are illusory, which are short term and which are preexisting. Sounds like fantasy to me.
HMRC is expecting things to get worse.
I think we should embrace the new worse.

At some point someone on your side is going to need to produce a cogent analysis of where things are and what they think should be done about it; starting from the pre-existing order and properly taking into account all of the material factors. A grown up and serious account. No sign of it yet though.

The solution is clear: Rejoin the customs Union

 

[Smokeandsteam]

As you probably know, I didn't engage with the plebiscite that 'offered' a choice between 2 visions of how to accelerate regressive wealth transfer. That said, I do appreciate that the electorate were encouraged to regard the UK's membership of the supra state as the over-arching issue of our times and then divide on the binary choice. So it's no surprise that folk still find themselves thinking in those terms and, as you say, the losers moaning about the outcome. After all, the very reason that the right party of capital found itself so riven that the plebiscite was the only solution they could discern, was that the 1973(5) losers had conducted a campaign of moaning about the outcome since then.

We're also dealing with people attuned to electoral outcomes that play out in 5 year cycles in which HMLO are constitutionally obliged to 'moan' about the outcome. It's just that in the case of a plebiscite there is no official opposition, is there? For Brexit loyalists to moan about the moaning looks suspiciously like trying to close down criticism of the outcome they won.

For someone, who 'didn't engage' at the time, you've more than made up for it with your engagement since

Don't buy the 5 year cycle line - at all. On your latter point I'd say there will need to come a point when, if the debate remains utterly circular, then continuity remain will need to be left to it. In terms of agency they are probably already dead, in the sense that its not been an idea that people coalesce around anymore and hasn't been for a long time. It's also fundamentally a politically disabling approach: social being produces social consciousness and freezing that process in time is never vey useful and over time becomes corrosive. Everyone I know who voted Remain has long since moved on, some have changed their mind, others haven't: but they don't define every issue through reference to the vote. Fully aware that the meme gang on here won't accept any of that, but they should.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

d love to see your list of which are illusory, which are short term and which are preexisting.

We don't do evidence on this thread pal

 

[MrSki]

I feel it in my bones that sooner or later one of these Brexiteers will find an actual benefit to this whole shit show. Surely it must happen soon.

 

[Pickman's model]

I feel it in my bones that sooner or later one of these Brexiteers will find an actual benefit to this whole shit show. Surely it must happen soon.

probably that while everyone's watching covid and brexit the real shit they're getting on with is going unnoticed.

 

[gosub]

As you probably know, I didn't engage with the plebiscite that 'offered' a choice between 2 visions of how to accelerate regressive wealth transfer. That said, I do appreciate that the electorate were encouraged to regard the UK's membership of the supra state as the over-arching issue of our times and then divide on the binary choice. So it's no surprise that folk still find themselves thinking in those terms and, as you say, the losers moaning about the outcome. After all, the very reason that the right party of capital found itself so riven that the plebiscite was the only solution they could discern, was that the 1973(5) losers had conducted a campaign of moaning about the outcome since then.

We're also dealing with people attuned to electoral outcomes that play out in 5 year cycles in which HMLO are constitutionally obliged to 'moan' about the outcome. It's just that in the case of a plebiscite there is no official opposition, is there? For Brexit loyalists to moan about the moaning looks suspiciously like trying to close down criticism of the outcome they won.

Having been born in 72, didn't have much of a view of the 1973(5) plebiscites at the time.

 

[brogdale]

Having been born in 72, didn't have much of a view of the 1973(5) plebiscites at the time.

'75 was the plebiscite.

 

[bimble]

If within the next few years, say 20,000 british people become lorry drivers, because the job of lorry driving becomes a decent job & there's help to pay the costs of training, then what happens to the 20,000 jobs that they used to do but don't anymore ?
Same with any industy where they're talking about shortages now - is the idea that the shit jobs will simply disappear ?

 

[Raheem]

If within the next few years, say 20,000 british people become lorry drivers, because the job of lorry driving becomes a decent job & there's help to pay the costs of training, then what happens to the 20,000 jobs that they used to do but don't anymore ?
Same with any industy where they're talking about shortages now - is the idea that the shit jobs will simply disappear ?

It think that sort of is the idea of some Tories. Picking fruit is rubbish work, so we should stop growing fruit and just import it. Can't help feeling it's a philosophy of convenience ("no, no, this is actually exactly what we wanted") rather than something ideological.

 

[bimble]

It think that sort of is the idea of some Tories. Picking fruit is rubbish work, so we should stop growing fruit and just import it. Can't help feeling it's a philosophy of convenience ("no, no, this is actually exactly what we wanted") rather than something ideological.

yeah i keep remembering this guy in the telegraph. Food production = a "low value industry" so lets just allow it to disappear.

 

[philosophical]

But that’s not true though is it. There are massive questions: what will a post neo-liberal Britain look like, climate questions, the post Brexit economy and work etc etc. Much of Remain seems stuck, unable to move beyond its defeat and wanting to replay the game over and again. A cogent analysis doesn’t mean it ‘has to fix Brexit’. It means accepting the result and engaging with now rather than trying to shoehorn every issue in the lens of 2016

I believe we (remainers) accept the result, I don’t think you have to fret about that.
However the massive questions you pose are squarely down to the brexiteers to answer.
It is a matter of ‘you won, now get on with it and sort out everything you voted for (including the Irish border issue)’. We remainers won’t stop you brexiteers enjoying the fruits of your victory, it is accepted the floor is now yours, if you ask nicely we will even hold your coat whilst you enact your vision. However if you want any remainers to ‘engage’, you have to be more specific than that.
You brexiteers start first, and outline how you want the remainers to ‘engage’ and see if the remainers feel arsed to do anything.
Otherwise brexiteers it is accepted you dealt it, now you can smell it.
So where would you like to start?
Freedom of travel, study and work across the EU? Go for it, you go first and make a suggestion.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

It's weird that some people stopped having an opinion on things on 24th June 2016. Politics is held in aspic after that date, with no further campaigning - there isn't even a serious campaign to rejoin the EU yet.

Just sulking.

 

[Badgers]

If within the next few years, say 20,000 british people become lorry drivers, because the job of lorry driving becomes a decent job & there's help to pay the costs of training, then what happens to the 20,000 jobs that they used to do but don't anymore ?
Same with any industy where they're talking about shortages now - is the idea that the shit jobs will simply disappear ?

Once they have enough drivers then hours/pay will fall again.

#ToryScum

 

[bimble]

I don’t understand what these people think will happen in two years time, unless it’s that there will be fewer jobs overall in the country. I mean the jobs that the expected new drivers & welders & butchers etc used to do, whatever they were, presumably those jobs will just no longer exist.

UK labour crisis could last up to two years, CBI warns

Lobby group urges action on visas for foreign workers such as drivers, welders, butchers and bricklayers

www.theguardian.com

 

[Pickman's model]

It's weird that some people stopped having an opinion on things on 24th June 2016. Politics is held in aspic after that date, with no further campaigning - there isn't even a serious campaign to rejoin the EU yet.

Just sulking.

it's not even proper aspic, it's some ersatz shit

 

[Maggot]

To clarify three things: I’m not suggesting Remainers solve ‘the problems caused by Brexit’. Talking of which the ‘problems caused by Brexit’ are either illusory, short term, pre-existing structural or political economy matters exacerbated by it or a combination of all of them.

Looks like we need some more buttons.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

This is excellent stuff, and the type of welcome reflection we need from Remainers. Bloodworth, who if I remember used to be in the Socialist Organiser before going on an identarian journey, voted Remain and, by any measure cannot be confused with a leave supporter:

Why Remainers shouldn’t mock Brexiteers over the lorry driver shortage

The inconvenient truth is that employers have used migrant labour to reduce wages and standards.

www.newstatesman.com

 

[TopCat]

This is excellent stuff, and the type of welcome reflection we need from Remainers. Bloodworth, who if I remember used to be in the Socialist Organiser before going on an identarian journey, voted Remain and, by any measure cannot be confused with a leave supporter:

Why Remainers shouldn’t mock Brexiteers over the lorry driver shortage

The inconvenient truth is that employers have used migrant labour to reduce wages and standards.

www.newstatesman.com

It’s a good piece.

 

[The39thStep]

This is excellent stuff, and the type of welcome reflection we need from Remainers. Bloodworth, who if I remember used to be in the Socialist Organiser before going on an identarian journey, voted Remain and, by any measure cannot be confused with a leave supporter:

Why Remainers shouldn’t mock Brexiteers over the lorry driver shortage

The inconvenient truth is that employers have used migrant labour to reduce wages and standards.

www.newstatesman.com

What I like about it is that how ever he voted he sees the issues through a lens that many of us can I identify with . Might get his book to read on the plane.

To be fair there are some posters on here who I have no idea which way they voted and who’ve also got a class analysis but have either never posted or rarely post on the Brexit issue .