A thank you to Brexiteers.

[The39thStep]

There as no such thing as a unified 'working class' vote and to suggest there was is utter bollocks. It's not the 1950s any more.

Around a quarter of the W/ class voted Tory in the 50s and 60s . The figure is much higher now

 

[editor]

Around a quarter of the W/ class voted Tory in the 50s and 60s . The figure is much higher now

Gotta love the way you just slip in the 1960s there when I made zero reference to it. Either way my point still stands.*

And...

In 1966, 69 per cent of manual workers gave their X to Labour at election time. This number waned through the 1970s and 1980s until, by 1987, only 45 per cent of manual workers voted Labour. The greatest desertion was among skilled manual workers. Between 1945 and the end of the 1950s, around 60 per cent of these workers supported Labour; by the time of the mid-1980s only 34 per cent did.

Labour lost the working-class vote a long time ago

What’s Labour’s problem? Following its fantastic drubbing at the polls, the most common answer to that question is that the party has for too long ignored its traditional base: working-class voters. Among media Labourites in particular, those currently writing emotionally unhinged articles about...

www.spectator.co.uk

*I may have misread your post (on my phone) so apols for the fiery response!

 

[Yossarian]

There as no such thing as a unified 'working class' vote and to suggest there was is utter bollocks. It's not the 1950s any more.

The C2DE vote was 64%-36% in favour of Brexit - a very clear majority, but not exactly an overwhelming consensus.

With the large age differential in the Brexit vote taken into account, the vote among the working-age people who stood to be most affected by Brexit was probably a lot closer to 50/50.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Gotta love the way you just slip in the 1960s there when I made zero reference to it.

How rude. Your post was so well argued and thought out as well.

 

[editor]

tbf, though I may not share Smokeandsteam 's analysis, you did ask them for evidence and they have offered some.

It's not 'evidence' that actually supports his claim though, is it?

 

[Supine]

Seeing as you always approach these matters empirically:

Koch: What's in a Vote? Brexit beyond culture wars
McKenzie The Class Politics of Prejudice: Brexit and the Land of no-Hope and Glory
Telford & Wistow Brexit and the Working Class on Teeside: Moving beyond Reductionism
Short: The Geography of Brexit: What the vote reveals about the Disunited Kingdom
Dawson: Hating immigration and loving immigrants: Nationalism, electoral politics, and the post industrial white working class in Britain
Hall, Treadwell and Winlow: The Rise of the Right
Mahoney & Kearon: Social Quality and Brexit in Stoke-on-Trent, England
Willett, Tidy & others: Why did Cornwall vote for Brexit? Assessing the implications for EU structural funding programmes
McKenzie: ‘It’s not ideal’: Reconsidering ‘anger’ and ‘apathy’ in the Brexit vote among an invisible working class

Abstract from article 1:

The result of the United Kingdom's EU referendum has been interpreted as evidence of a “culture war” between proponents of liberal cosmopolitanism and defenders of socially conservative values. According to this interpretation, voters on both sides are seen as driven by identity-based politics. But on a council estate (social-housing project) in England, what made the EU referendum different from an ordinary election was that citizens perceived it as an opportunity to reject government as they know it. Citizens’ engagements with the referendum constitute attempts to insert everyday moralities into electoral processes. They provide an opening into alternative, if yet unknown, futures that go beyond any singular narratives that divide the electorate into camps of so-called Leavers and Remainers.

Summary from article 3:


(a) The effects of neoliberalism on working-class life over the last 40 years provide an important explanatory framework for the vote;
(b) The Labour Party’s abandonment of the working class appears to be a principal reason why these people voted to leave;
(c) The EU referendum offered a unique opportunity for working-class people to voice their dissatisfaction with the dominant social, cultural and political hegemon in contemporary England

You should be able to read all of these online - or at least the abstract.

​

There was no working class movement for this vote. You are correct that a lot of people voted against the establishment line to give them a kicking, and I can understand why some people did that. It isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement for the concept or reality of Brexit though is it? To me it’s more like the turkeys voting for Christmas - see the fishing community for a perfect example of this.

 

[bimble]

For some, and others for other reasons. What were all the millions of wealthy home county boomers whose vote was so crucial in winning the referendum booting against?
Ive said it before: there's so much projection on all parts of Brexit, and from all sides, people see what they want to see. its the most incredible example of mass confirmation bias

This is probably the truest thing said on this thread. That referendum result is like a Rorschach inkblot, it means whatever you want it to mean.

But if you're going to characterise the thing in any one way you do have to ignore a hell of a lot of inconvenient brexit voters, like the ones here (majority leave & devoutly tory since the dawn of time ).

 

[ska invita]

Ah thanks for the edit . Superstate yes I agree.

pretty sure super and supra are interchangeable

 

[not a trot]

There was no working class movement for this vote. You are correct that a lot of people voted against the establishment line to give them a kicking, and I can understand why some people did that. It isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement for the concept or reality of Brexit though is it? To me it’s more like the turkeys voting for Christmas - see the fishing community for a perfect example of this.

So what did the fish vote for ?

 

[brogdale]

pretty sure super and supra are interchangeable

It's pretty straightforward AFAICS, supra national = an entity bigger than/greater than than the nation states involved with it.

 

[Supine]

So what did the fish vote for ?

I suspect they prefer the classical french style to being battered and deep fried.

 

[ska invita]

It's pretty straightforward AFAICS, supra national = an entity bigger than/greater than than the nation states involved with it.

i did reading quite a few years ago about multiculturalism + minority and migrant rights within the EU, and specifically this comes up often in law where there the nation state has certain legislation and the EU suprastate provides other protections above that, and the sometimes complicated interaction and gaps between the two levels. I remember very little of it now though

 

[Steel Icarus]

It's not 'evidence' that actually supports his claim though, is it?

Have you read the evidence he provided at your request?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

It's not 'evidence' that actually supports his claim though, is it?

You asked for evidence that the working class Brexit vote was independent from, and motivated by reasons apart from, the formal Leave campaign and the positions it put forward. I have provided academic research from the south, the Midlands and the north that suggests my analysis is correct. You might not like it or agree with it but to deny that it says what it says is pathetic.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Have you read the evidence he provided at your request?

I suspect he's skimmed it, doesn't like the cut of its gib and has decided to cloud the waters by pretending it says something else and by trying to start a debate about the 1950's. Par for the course.

 

[Steel Icarus]

You asked for evidence that the working class Brexit vote was independent from, and motivated by reasons apart from, the formal Leave campaign and the positions it put forward. I have provided academic research from the south, the Midlands and the north that suggests my analysis is correct. You might not like it or agree with it but to deny that it says what is says is pathetic.

You're never going to get an honest discourse, try as you might.

 

[Supine]

 

[brogdale]

You asked for evidence that the working class Brexit vote was independent from, and motivated by reasons apart from, the formal Leave campaign and the positions it put forward. I have provided academic research from the south, the Midlands and the north that suggests my analysis is correct. You might not like it or agree with it but to deny that it says what is says is pathetic.

There are, of course, less palatable sources of empirical data, that might also support your contention that the working class Brexit vote was independent from, and motivated by reasons apart from, the formal Leave campaign:

 

[brogdale]

I think that's the largest polling numbers split.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

There are, of course, less palatable sources of empirical data, that might also support your contention that the working class Brexit vote was independent from, and motivated by reasons apart from, the formal Leave campaign:

View attachment 286250

See Dawson.

 

[brogdale]

See Dawson.

Link?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Link?

Off out now. Will post it later

 

[The39thStep]

View attachment 286251

We've been round this about a million times over the past 4/5 years. . In a way ska invita has a point there's enough data out there skewed to which ever way anyone wants.
What I find puzzling is that very few posters on here ,who use whatever data re Brexit they prefer , argue or sketch out a future post Brexit .

Have you any suggestions or proposals for the future based on those figures you posted ?

 

[The39thStep]

pretty sure super and supra are interchangeable

as I am sure they would have been in the politics of the EU literature (way pre-Brexit)

 

[editor]

Have you read the evidence he provided at your request?

Do you actually agree with his claim then?

 

[Supine]

We've been round this about a million times over the past 4/5 years. . In a way ska invita has a point there's enough data out there skewed to which ever way anyone wants.
What I find puzzling is that very few posters on here ,who use whatever data re Brexit they prefer , argue or sketch out a future post Brexit .

Have you any suggestions or proposals for the future based on those figures you posted ?

I was responding to a poster who talked about the working class and why they voted.

Do i have a proposal? Honestly I don’t, but I will push for closer integration with Europe as much as possible (without full rejoining - which is off the table for at least a generation imho).

This is a thread for all the damage brexit is doing so that’s what I’ll be posting in here. It’ll be a busy thread just on that subject.

 

[ska invita]

Thanks Brogdale, even as I typed it out I knew I'd get some dismissive shit like that from editor. Lesson learnt for the future.

Editor makes a fair point, the big city urban working class voted majority remain. Makes talking about a working class vote in totality and generalisations meaningless.

Eta: it also doesnt answer how any vote cast is truly Independent of campaigns. Campaigns are designed to influence. I'm sure the majority of all voters think of themselves as independent thinkers

 

[The39thStep]

I was responding to a poster who talked about the working class and why they voted.

Do i have a proposal? Honestly I don’t, but I will push forcloser integration with Europe as much as possible (without full rejoining - which is off the table for at least a generation imho).

This is a thread for all the damage brexit is doing so that’s what I’ll be posting in here. It’ll be a busy thread just on that subject.

So what would be the way forward to campaign for closer integration with Europe as much as possible (without full rejoining ? What forces/ parties? What would close integration look like as a goal?

 

[Supine]

So what would be the way forward to campaign for closer integration with Europe as much as possible (without full rejoining ? What forces/ parties? What would close integration look like as a goal?

I might start a thread on it in a few years time

 

[Pickman's model]

I might start a thread on it in a few years time

yeh you don't want to rush into something like that