A thank you to Brexiteers.

[existentialist]

I liked this thread better when that Uksomething twat was pulling nonsense out of his arse

 

[Steel Icarus]

Do you actually agree with his claim then?

Irrelevance. I asked you whether you'd read the evidence he asked for.

 

[editor]

Irrelevance. I asked you whether you'd read the evidence he asked for.

Oh, it's wriggle time. He made a ludicrous claim that is clearly complete bollocks. Instead of just admitting his error, he went for the time-honoured bluffer's tactic of pasting up a half-ton of random links, none of which actually directly and fully support his assertion because - as everyone knows - it's a ridiculous claim in the first place, as others have pointed out.

Now answer my question please.

 

[Badgers]

 

[ska invita]

Seeing as you always approach these matters empirically:

McKenzie The Class Politics of Prejudice: Brexit and the Land of no-Hope and Glory

As you say we can only read the abstracts. So heres one from that paper for example (first one i picked):
"This paper focuses upon the sense that class politics, and cultural class distinction, within the UK had the biggest influence in determining a working-class ‘Leave Vote’ in the 2016 referendum within the UK. This paper explores accounts and narratives from working-class ‘leave’ voters though an ethnographic study of the political and social viewpoints of working-class communities of East London"

....yet the majority of london working class voted Remain. So it proves nothing other than flagging some voices.

All that proves is that there are a whole range of reasons people voted the way they did, across the class spectrum, including these. Lisa McKenzie is hardly unbiased. It looks like she has selectively found people who make her case for her and highlighted their voices above others. Its not much different to doing vox pops and editing them. Theres all kind of attitudes to Brexit you can find through that process. 33 million people cast a vote. Its impossible to generalise about the reasons why by such mass categories as working class

*ETA also what part of working class east london makes a huge difference. Barking and Dagenham have had big BNP votes in the recent past. Lewisham hasn't. Within a borough there are different estates with different micropolitics. There are a variety of complex reasons for those differences. Chosing where to do such interviews is already a hugely biased decision from which to draw any wider conclusions

 

[editor]

As you say we can only read the abstracts. So heres one from that paper for example (first one i picked):
"This paper focuses upon the sense that class politics, and cultural class distinction, within the UK had the biggest influence in determining a working-class ‘Leave Vote’ in the 2016 referendum within the UK. This paper explores accounts and narratives from working-class ‘leave’ voters though an ethnographic study of the political and social viewpoints of working-class communities of East London"

....yet the majority of london working class voted Remain. So it proves nothing other than flagging some voices.

All that proves is that there are a whole range of reasons people voted the way they did, across the class spectrum, including these. Lisa McKenzie is hardly unbiased. It looks like she has selectively found people who make her case for her and highlighted their voices above others. Its not much different to doing vox pops and editing them. Theres all kind of attitudes to Brexit you can find through that process. 33 million people cast a vote. Its impossible to generalise about the reasons why by such mass categories as working class

Exactly!

 

[The39thStep]

As you say we can only read the abstracts. So heres one from that paper for example (first one i picked):
"This paper focuses upon the sense that class politics, and cultural class distinction, within the UK had the biggest influence in determining a working-class ‘Leave Vote’ in the 2016 referendum within the UK. This paper explores accounts and narratives from working-class ‘leave’ voters though an ethnographic study of the political and social viewpoints of working-class communities of East London"

....yet the majority of london working class voted Remain. So it proves nothing other than flagging some voices.

All that proves is that there are a whole range of reasons people voted the way they did, across the class spectrum, including these. Lisa McKenzie is hardly unbiased. It looks like she has selectively found people who make her case for her and highlighted their voices above others. Its not much different to doing vox pops and editing them. Theres all kind of attitudes to Brexit you can find through that process. 33 million people cast a vote. Its impossible to generalise about the reasons why by such mass categories as working class

*ETA also what part of working class east london makes a huge difference. Barking and Dagenham have had big BNP votes in the recent past. Lewisham hasn't. Within a borough there are different estates with different micropolitics. There are a variety of complex reasons for those differences. Chosing where to do such interviews is already a hugely biased decision from which to draw any wider conclusions

Barking and Dagenham also had a very strong CP many years ago .You should know enough about the reasons where the far right have had an impact and the reasons for it . I’d be careful about pathologizing areas if I were you .

 

[Pickman's model]

As you say we can only read the abstracts. So heres one from that paper for example (first one i picked):
"This paper focuses upon the sense that class politics, and cultural class distinction, within the UK had the biggest influence in determining a working-class ‘Leave Vote’ in the 2016 referendum within the UK. This paper explores accounts and narratives from working-class ‘leave’ voters though an ethnographic study of the political and social viewpoints of working-class communities of East London"

....yet the majority of london working class voted Remain. So it proves nothing other than flagging some voices.

All that proves is that there are a whole range of reasons people voted the way they did, across the class spectrum, including these. Lisa McKenzie is hardly unbiased. It looks like she has selectively found people who make her case for her and highlighted their voices above others. Its not much different to doing vox pops and editing them. Theres all kind of attitudes to Brexit you can find through that process. 33 million people cast a vote. Its impossible to generalise about the reasons why by such mass categories as working class

*ETA also what part of working class east london makes a huge difference. Barking and Dagenham have had big BNP votes in the recent past. Lewisham hasn't. Within a borough there are different estates with different micropolitics. There are a variety of complex reasons for those differences. Chosing where to do such interviews is already a hugely biased decision from which to draw any wider conclusions

final accepted version online at The class politics of prejudice: Brexit and the land of no-hope and glory - Middlesex University Research Repository

 

[Artaxerxes]

I think its fair to say there is an impression that the working clas voted for Brexit, and that The Red Wall Labour voted for Brexit thats been carefully cultivated by the press and Boris. The problem is that doesn't actually hold scrutiny. If you look at the numbers Labour voters voted more for Remain than existing Tory voters.



The issue is that Brexit dragged people into the vote who would not normally vote - now its fair to say that Labour should have been appealing to these voters but haven't, but the Conservatives also weren't appealing to them. We spent the 2000's with Labour and Tories chasing the sacred Middle Ground* and shitting on everyone else and leaving UKIP to really stoke up fears of immigration and Europe, egged on by many many Conservative mouthpieces - much of the issues with being a member of the EU have been adopted wholeheartedly by the governments of the last 30 years from Thatcher onwards and any blowback to that has been deflected by the journalism of the likes of Mr Johnson saying "oh these are the EU rules" where the problem is that as seen in both France and Germany those rules are either happily ignored or only just adhered to. It is the government of the UK that really went full on to embrace the weights and measures issues, or the privatisation of the rails and post office. That those were absolute fucking disasters was then turned around and blamed on the EU.

The issues we've had with immigration can also be very much laid at Tonty Blairs feet and Labours feet, part of the issues with the standard policies of the last 20 years has been government punting immigrants into already struggling communities and never boosting or assisting the residents. O

Understandably at the end of this process in 2016 its why so many thought fuck it and voted Leave. But it was rather unfortunate they threw their weight behind some of the people who have been responsible the shafting done to the country and who've lied to us for the last few decades. Though arguably, voting either way would have meant siding with one bunch of liars or another.




*the middle ground being property owners and business owners and retirees because these are the people who turned out to vote.

As you say we can only read the abstracts. So heres one from that paper for example (first one i picked):
"This paper focuses upon the sense that class politics, and cultural class distinction, within the UK had the biggest influence in determining a working-class ‘Leave Vote’ in the 2016 referendum within the UK. This paper explores accounts and narratives from working-class ‘leave’ voters though an ethnographic study of the political and social viewpoints of working-class communities of East London"

....yet the majority of london working class voted Remain. So it proves nothing other than flagging some voices.

All that proves is that there are a whole range of reasons people voted the way they did, across the class spectrum, including these. Lisa McKenzie is hardly unbiased. It looks like she has selectively found people who make her case for her and highlighted their voices above others. Its not much different to doing vox pops and editing them. Theres all kind of attitudes to Brexit you can find through that process. 33 million people cast a vote. Its impossible to generalise about the reasons why by such mass categories as working class

*ETA also what part of working class east london makes a huge difference. Barking and Dagenham have had big BNP votes in the recent past. Lewisham hasn't. Within a borough there are different estates with different micropolitics. There are a variety of complex reasons for those differences. Chosing where to do such interviews is already a hugely biased decision from which to draw any wider conclusions

The issue with pining for the working class is its now very hard to say what that actually is. Why is a northerner almost always assumed to be working class? Why are graduates who are currently in debt to the fucking eyeballs working in Starbucks assumed to be part of the Metropolitan Elite? Especially given the last few decades pretending that everyone is only going to earn money by getting a degree.

 

[Humberto]

With establishment orthodoxies such as 'innovators and strivers' and 'deserving poor', long term the majority of us will always lose. Any given government of the day will set the framework where our interests are ignored or worked against. So we will get binary options, none of which help us. Government becomes arbitrary, and pantomime.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Oh, it's wriggle time. He made a ludicrous claim that is clearly complete bollocks. Instead of just admitting his error, he went for the time-honoured bluffer's tactic of pasting up a half-ton of random links, none of which actually directly and fully support his assertion because - as everyone knows - it's a ridiculous claim in the first place, as others have pointed out.

Now answer my question please.

No. Zero interest in getting into it with you.

 

[gosub]

You don’t have to. You can just moan and grumble about the ‘good old days’ if you prefer. Smother yourselves in the warm blanket of nostalgia whilst resting after searching Twitter for photos of empty sandwich shelves

Fair point BUT BRITISH FORIEGN POLICY IS FUCKED. India invested a fuck ton in Afgan infrastructure projects.

 

[gosub]

With establishment orthodoxies such as 'innovators and strivers' and 'deserving poor', long term the majority of us will always lose. Any given government of the day will set the framework where our interests are ignored or worked against. So we will get binary options, none of which help us. Government becomes arbitrary, and pantomime.

 

[MrSki]

Seeing as you always approach these matters empirically:

Koch: What's in a Vote? Brexit beyond culture wars
McKenzie The Class Politics of Prejudice: Brexit and the Land of no-Hope and Glory
Telford & Wistow Brexit and the Working Class on Teeside: Moving beyond Reductionism
Short: The Geography of Brexit: What the vote reveals about the Disunited Kingdom
Dawson: Hating immigration and loving immigrants: Nationalism, electoral politics, and the post industrial white working class in Britain
Hall, Treadwell and Winlow: The Rise of the Right
Mahoney & Kearon: Social Quality and Brexit in Stoke-on-Trent, England
Willett, Tidy & others: Why did Cornwall vote for Brexit? Assessing the implications for EU structural funding programmes
McKenzie: ‘It’s not ideal’: Reconsidering ‘anger’ and ‘apathy’ in the Brexit vote among an invisible working class

Abstract from article 1:

The result of the United Kingdom's EU referendum has been interpreted as evidence of a “culture war” between proponents of liberal cosmopolitanism and defenders of socially conservative values. According to this interpretation, voters on both sides are seen as driven by identity-based politics. But on a council estate (social-housing project) in England, what made the EU referendum different from an ordinary election was that citizens perceived it as an opportunity to reject government as they know it. Citizens’ engagements with the referendum constitute attempts to insert everyday moralities into electoral processes. They provide an opening into alternative, if yet unknown, futures that go beyond any singular narratives that divide the electorate into camps of so-called Leavers and Remainers.

Summary from article 3:


(a) The effects of neoliberalism on working-class life over the last 40 years provide an important explanatory framework for the vote;
(b) The Labour Party’s abandonment of the working class appears to be a principal reason why these people voted to leave;
(c) The EU referendum offered a unique opportunity for working-class people to voice their dissatisfaction with the dominant social, cultural and political hegemon in contemporary England

You should be able to read all of these online - or at least the abstract.

​

5.50 onwards.
ETA both songs from the early 80s but still so relevant today.


Edit again to add that this is not a dig Smokeandsteam you are trying to argue your point but it seems to be falling apart. Did you try to deny there were any shortages or was that someone else?

 

[extra dry]

if you wish to see a mix of coked up Gove, and bat sh#t crazy statements from Farage. I am just so amgry with their BS I want punch Boris repeatly in the face with a spiked plank of wood.

 

[MrSki]

 

[krtek a houby]

I liked this thread better when that Uksomething twat was pulling nonsense out of his arse

Yes, the parody Brexiteer bellends have gone a wee bit quiet. Loose Spanner Pants, etc.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

5.50 onwards.
ETA both songs from the early 80s but still so relevant today.


Edit again to add that this is not a dig Smokeandsteam you are trying to argue your point but it seems to be falling apart. Did you try to deny there were any shortages or was that someone else?

Good to see you’ve recovered from the exhaustion induced by posting memes and FBPE Twitter links of pictures empty shelves.

PS. You do know none of those links, bar one, were to books right? I know reading books and learning about things makes you very angry - you’ve raised it many times - and now even felt the need to post links to songs presumably about the appalling habit..

PPS. Now you are restored, and talking of food shortages, what is your position on the plan outlined by the captains of the food and farming industry to save us that we were discussing last week? Full support I’m guessing?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Oh, it's wriggle time. He made a ludicrous claim that is clearly complete bollocks. Instead of just admitting his error, he went for the time-honoured bluffer's tactic of pasting up a half-ton of random links, none of which actually directly and fully support his assertion because - as everyone knows - it's a ridiculous claim in the first place, as others have pointed out.

Now answer my question please.

PMSL. So, let’s get this straight. I make a statement about the working class Brexit vote. You demand I provide evidence for it. I provide evidence for it. Now, you accuse me of ‘bluffing’ for providing the evidence that you demanded. Brilliant stuff.

You also, hilariously, claim that the evidence that you haven’t read doesn’t say what it does. We know it does because I pasted in the abstract from one and a conclusion from another precisely because I knew you’d claim that.

Incredible stuff.

 

[Badgers]

#ProjectBeer

 

[bimble]

The claim that "the working class brexit vote" was an independent movement / impulse and was not at all influenced by any of the propaganda, does that include people who voted for ukip in the preceding years or are they excluded?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The claim that "the working class brexit vote" was an independent movement / impulse and was not at all influenced by any of the propaganda, does that include people who voted for ukip in the preceding years or are they excluded?

Some, yes. Many were labour voters. Many didn’t vote for anyone for years

 

[Smokeandsteam]

As you say we can only read the abstracts.

If you want read any of the papers let me know and I’ll sort it. I’ve go no problem at all with people reading them and disagreeing with them (as you do, although you misunderstand ethnographic research ref the Lisa journal article). I even agree that more work needs to be done on this (tbf there is other work going on which will do so but won’t report before 2026) and until there is multiple explanations can and will be advanced.

My problem is with those who claim that there is no evidence/that I haven’t provided any having been asked to do so. Which is bollocks.

 

[bimble]

Some, yes. Many were labour voters. Many didn’t vote for anyone for years

does that mean that Ukip itself was 'organic & bottom-up"?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

does that mean that Ukip itself was 'organic & bottom-up"?

No

 

[Steel Icarus]

If you want read any of the papers let me know and I’ll sort it. I’ve go no problem at all with people reading them and disagreeing with them (as you do, although you misunderstand ethnographic research ref the Lisa journal article). I even agree that more work needs to be done on this (tbf there is other work going on which will do so but won’t report before 2026) and until there is multiple explanations can and will be advanced.

My problem is with those who claim that there is no evidence/that I haven’t provided any having been asked to do so. Which is bollocks.

It's a masterclass in several different logical fallacies innit. It's pointless engaging with dishonest actors

 

[Pickman's model]

does that mean that Ukip itself was 'organic & bottom-up"?

It was full of arses

 

[brogdale]

PMSL. So, let’s get this straight. I make a statement about the working class Brexit vote. You demand I provide evidence for it. I provide evidence for it. Now, you accuse me of ‘bluffing’ for providing the evidence that you demanded. Brilliant stuff.

You also, hilariously, claim that the evidence that you haven’t read doesn’t say what it does. We know it does because I pasted in the abstract from one and a conclusion from another precisely because I knew you’d claim that.

Incredible stuff.

Quite possibly, but I was interested in our varying recollections of working class interest in anti-EU sentiment as an organic, bottom-up driver of the eventual plebiscite outcome.

Having thought about this, I still can't recall those around me expressing any interest in the EU between 1975 and the day my old Dad attempted to repeat some bendy banana/cumcumber story he'd read in the fucking Mail. Even from my LP days, the only time I recall any working class interest in the topic was that shitshow time when the party/TUC paraded Delors as the saviour to deliver us from Fatch.

Genuinely interested in your experience of where this bottom-up stuff came from..

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Quite possibly, but I was interested in our varying recollections of working class interest in anti-EU sentiment as an organic, bottom-up driver of the eventual plebiscite outcome.

Having thought about this, I still can't recall those around me expressing any interest in the EU between 1975 and the day my old Dad attempted to repeat some bendy banana/cumcumber story he'd read in the fucking Mail. Even from my LP days, the only time I recall any working class interest in the topic was that shitshow time when the party/TUC paraded Delors as the saviour to deliver us from Fatch.

Genuinely interested in your experience of where this bottom-up stuff came from..

Actually my experience is different. My dad was a steelworker. Him and his mates have long (as long as I can remember anyway) hated the EU because the EC Coal and Steel Community imposed quotas in the 1970’s that led directly to the closure of their plant. I’ve got a photo of my dad and others with Tony Benn from 1977 when he met the stewards to discuss the quotas and where he called for the re-industrialisation of coal and steel making areas and in opposition to the ECSC drawdowns that were guiding Labour policy. All of this was before Thatcher got to work…when the labour and trade union movement - certainly the left part of it - was firmly and in a long term basis anti EU. My dad and his mates wanted to go to Brussels to have it out with the bureaucrats but their union bosses (ISTC, a very right wing union) blocked it.

But you’ve missed my point. I’m not arguing and haven’t argued that there was an organic anti-EU sentiment. That was constructed. For sure, working class people were no fans of the EU anyway but the vote - it’s enthusiasm, it’s numbers, the anger behind it - was motivated at root by other reasons which can be summarised as: deindustrialisation, peripheralisation, despair and hatred towards the political class. People twigged that a) the boss/political class wanted and expected a remain vote and b) that under a referendum all votes would count unlike normal elections where whatever way you voted you got a wanker elected.

Did the constructed and top down narrative about the EU also play a role? Undoubtedly. Did that narrative synthesise into other grievances and feelings? Yes. But the visceral and motivational energy was not created by it. Hope that clarifies my position

 

[brogdale]

Actually my experience is different. My dad was a steelworker. Him and his mates have long (as long as I can remember anyway) hated the EU because the EC Coal and Steel Community imposed quotas in the 1970’s that led directly to the closure of their plant. I’ve got a photo of my dad and others with Tony Benn from 1977 when he met the stewards to discuss the quotas and where he called for the re-industrialisation of coal and steel making areas and in opposition to the ECSC drawdowns that were guiding Labour policy. All of this was before Thatcher got to work…when the labour and trade union movement - certainly the left part of it - was firmly and in a long term basis anti EU. My dad and his mates wanted to go to Brussels to have it out with the bureaucrats but their union bosses (ISTC, a very right wing union) blocked it.

But you’ve missed my point. I’m not arguing and haven’t argued that there was an organic anti-EU sentiment. That was constructed. For sure, working class people were no fans of the EU anyway but the vote - it’s enthusiasm, it’s numbers, the anger behind it - was motivated at root by other reasons which can be summarised as: deindustrialisation, peripheralisation, despair and hatred towards the political class. People twigged that a) the boss/political class wanted and expected a remain vote and b) that under a referendum all votes would count unlike normal elections where whatever way you voted you got a wanker elected.

Did the constructed and top down narrative about the EU also play a role? Undoubtedly. Did that narrative synthesise into other grievances and feelings? Yes. But the visceral and motivational energy was not created by it. Hope that clarifies my position

Thanks for that detailed response.

It's interesting that we're sharing divergent working class perspectives from different parts of the country and from different sectors (my Dad was a Labourer and Mum a cleaner, both un-unionised).

That said, I think we can agree on the long and increasingly effective, top-down construction of anti-EU sentiment that culminated in the 2016 result. Where I diverge from your analysis is when you say that "working class people were no fans of the EU anyway". I think that over-generalises from your (sector/geographical) specific and ignores the large proportion of working class voters who did actually vote to remain in 2016, especially when the retired are set to one side.

My experience is that, before the billionaire media kicked off in earnest against membership, the working class people around me and my family were just not aware, interested or engaged in the constitutional/trading arrangements consequent on the shared sovereignty of supra-state membership.