A thank you to Brexiteers.

[Smokeandsteam]

Still ignoring the question completely: Smokeandsteam

see category 4 in the post above. That's you.

 

[Supine]

Apologies:

Support for the Co-op CEO, NFU and food processors employers position: Badgers and Glitch Hiker
Exhaustion from posting memes about the 'Brexit food crisis' meaning a position on the new plan to solve the 'Brexit food crisis' is not available: Ski
Despite posting about it endlessly, I'm not that bothered: bimble
Err, well what do you think about the employer led plan to solve these 'Brexit food shortages' that we've been posting about and endlessly drawing attention to: various posters
Pending: Editor
Support with the caveat that the employers plan pays close attention to appropriate methods that keep wages and prices low (for the benefit of the poor): Supine

So you completely misunderstood my point and dodge the analysis that brexit is hurting the poorer in our society not helping. Well done

 

[brogdale]

Question is irrelevant; we know that employers and their political wing will always ensure that the labour market will be rigged in their favour.

 

[editor]

I'm guessing his answer would involve the free market and wage rates in Britain compared to, say, Romania. While you're here, do you support the nascent plan to solve the 'Brexit food crisis'?

Let's deal with Tom first. You repeatedly asked several people if they agreed with Tom but it turns out you don't actually know what his plan is and can only take a guess at it.

I'll wait until you can actually provide some detail of these plans before answering anything else.

 

[two sheds]

see category 4 in the post above. That's you.

I'm not a remainer. I just find it strange that you aggressively demand people answer your question (and ignore/rubbish any answer they give) when you refuse to answer it yourself.

 

[brogdale]

I'm not a remainer. I just find it strange that you aggressively demand people answer your question (and ignore/rubbish any answer they give) when you refuse to answer it yourself.

That's Brexit loyalists, for you.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

So is this the thread for pissy remeainers blaming brexit for Covid related stuff?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Let's deal with Tom first. You repeatedly asked several people if they agreed with Tom but it turns out you don't actually know what his plan is and can only take a guess at it.

Tom is quoted here. The problem for him is twofold: inflationary wage rises (he is opposed to them) and the lack of a reserve pool of labour ‘there is only one pool of labour’ (which presumably tackling also deals with the first problem). The answer is helpfully spelt out by another CEO in the same paragraph):

Supply problems and labour shortages start to bite

A meeting of brassica growers last month ended on a gloomy note. “We might as well pack up and go home unless returns improve,” one grower said. The problem was not a shortage of demand for cabbages and broccoli but getting them out of the ground and onto the shelves. Farmers are facing acute supply

www.thetimes.co.uk

So, do you support the employers plan to solve the ‘Brexit food crisis’?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

So is this the thread for pissy remeainers blaming brexit for Covid related stuff?

Yes.

 

[ska invita]

Why do 'continuity' remain or the 'loyalist' brexiteers think that neoliberal exploitation of labour will alter as a result of supra-state membership status?

The case is that we are now "unfettered" from one powerful layer of legally binding neoliberal institutions, making the way clearer for a socialist government to transform the economy without being taken to court for doing so

As I said this morning, it is unclear to me just how unfettered we really are, the hard brexit deal continues obligations regarding state aid, though I guess even if there are still legal binds the position is both clearer and easier to break from if such a moment ever came to pass.

 

[Raheem]

The poor , especially those who lost their jobs due to business relocation , shouldn’t support strikes for improved wages or indeed wage increases because food prices will go up and food choices will go down which will disproportionately effect them more than anyone . Socialist nirvana ? Don’t think so.

This example isn't fundamentally about supporting or not supporting strikes, though. It's about supporting or not supporting government macroeconomic policy.

In, principle, I'll support almost any industrial action made feasible by the underlying conditions. But that doesn't have to mean welcoming the underlying conditions.

 

[editor]

Tom is quoted here. The problem for him is twofold: inflationary wage rises (he is opposed to them) and the lack of a reserve pool of labour ‘there is only one pool of labour’ (which presumably tackling also deals with the first problem). The answer is helpfully spelt out by another CEO in the same paragraph):

Supply problems and labour shortages start to bite

A meeting of brassica growers last month ended on a gloomy note. “We might as well pack up and go home unless returns improve,” one grower said. The problem was not a shortage of demand for cabbages and broccoli but getting them out of the ground and onto the shelves. Farmers are facing acute supply

www.thetimes.co.uk

So, do you support the employers plan to solve the ‘Brexit food crisis’?

I don't have access to that article as it's behind a paywall. If you're going to nag the fuck out of people for answers, at least have the courtesy to support your questions properly.

Re: the 'employers plan to solve the ‘Brexit food crisis’" - which employers are you talking about? And which plan? I imagine there's loads of different ones.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I don't have access to that article as it's behind a paywall. If you're going to nag the fuck out of people for answers, at least have the courtesy to support your questions properly.

Re: the 'employers plan to solve the ‘Brexit food crisis’" - which employers are you talking about? And which plan? I imagine there's loads of different ones.

Hardly nagging, merely an enquiry: given the regularity and stridency of the posting about Brexit food crisis by a number of posters on this thread.

It's odd, given that regularity and stridency, that when an idea is advanced to solve it, nobody on here wants to talk about it, but there we go. Anyway...

A number of newspapers have carried the same report today which quotes the following:

- The CEO of the Co-op, Steve Murrells, has called for a relaxation of visa rules to help fill the 100,000 HGV job vacancies and has pointed out that, in hs expert opinion, tempting back the 13,300 EU drivers who have left the EU will solve the problem.

Tom Bradshaw, has agreed and points out that a similar problem exists in meat processing. His insight is that Brexit has led to people leaving the industry to get jobs as courier drivers, and had sparked record absence records as people are pinged on the Covid app. But, a bigger problems looms over the industry: labour.

His solution is the same as Steve's and he points out (behind the paywall) that "we are seeing huge inflationary wage pressures. But all that does is move workers from one job to another and create a problem somewhere else" The problem is "that there is only one pool of labour": the solution is to create more pools of labour. Whilst Tom doesn't say it I do not think we need to think hard about where he suggests we might find these pools...

- The British Meat Processors Association chief executive Nick Allen has used his expertise to arrive at the same conclusion:. Meat industry workforce talent pool is turning into a talent puddle - BMPA

The question is a simple one: do you support them?

 

[The39thStep]

This example isn't fundamentally about supporting or not supporting strikes, though. It's about supporting or not supporting government macroeconomic policy.

In, principle, I'll support almost any industrial action made feasible by the underlying conditions. But that doesn't have to mean welcoming the underlying conditions.

Inclined to half agree with this , however can you expand on ‘ the underlying conditions ‘ ?

 

[Raheem]

Inclined to half agree with this , however can you expand on ‘ the underlying conditions ‘ ?

IMO, there's less to the current driver shortage than some seem to think. I expect that food supply problems will be over before there is time to remedy them anyway, and I expect drivers will not profit so much over the medium term.

But there are some predicting that, if something is not done, there will be a chronic problem of food supply, perhaps lasting years, and getting worse before it gets better. For argument's sake, I'll adopt that scenario.

So, we could have a situation where HGV drivers stand to benefit from a lack of supply wrt their labour but, elsewhere in the production/supply chain, workers are losing hours and being laid off. Typically workers for whom things are more precarious than for HGV drivers, just as it happens. Not to mention, a lot of food is going to waste.

This would be a nonsensical situation, and it would be right for the government to bring it to an end if it is able. Which is not me setting worker against worker. The scenario does that, but I'm not a big fan of the scenario.

But, that is not to say I would object to drivers demanding more pay. It is not that that is causing the problem. Given that there is a problem, though, I would see it resolved, even if that is to the disappointment of drivers.

 

[Supine]

OK - I’ll bite. Do I agree that getting more drivers would help? I don’t think wages is actually the biggest problem tbh but if they can’t recruit locally with higher wages then yes - adding drivers to the skills list that allows visas would be good idea.

Driver shortages are only one component of the issue though as the friction caused by brexit red tape is causing multiple problems with actually getting stuff into the uk. Its not a simple question of paying drivers a bit more to resolve the issue as far as I can see.

I only know one HGV driver and he does reasonably well financially. He hates being away from his kids so much though.

Meanwhile - all the causes of supply chain woes are now worrying shops over christmas demand:

Tesco and Iceland bosses warn over Christmas supplies

But Tesco's chairman says don't "overdramatise" lorry driver crisis, as Iceland warns problem getting worse.

www.bbc.com

 

[ska invita]

I expect that food supply problems will be over before there is time to remedy them anywa

Full border checks are yet to kick in, situation is expected to get worse

 

[Badgers]

Full border checks are yet to kick in, situation is expected to get worse

Yup. This is guaranteed. That confirmation came from HMRC so we can take it 'best case' scenario.

 

[bimble]

There’s no import checks yet on stuff coming in from the EU are there, cos government has kept delaying and extending ‘grace period’.

 

[two sheds]

There’s no import checks yet on stuff coming in from the EU are there, cos government has kept delaying and extending ‘grace period’.

Fucking government remainers

 

[Raheem]

Full border checks are yet to kick in, situation is expected to get worse

Maybe, but I was really only talking about the shortage of drivers. Border checks may cause problems, but not the same problems.

 

[bimble]

Once border checks on the way in are added to the checks on the way out I think the driver shortage will get worse, because again who will want to do the job of driving to the uK to sit at borders for unknown hours when you’re paid by distance.

 

[Pickman's model]

Once border checks on the way in are added to the checks on the way out I think the driver shortage will get worse, because again who will want to do the job of driving to the uK to sit at borders for unknown hours when you’re paid by distance.

Sure this distance thing is a load of nonsense

 

[philosophical]

I hear the brexit busting ferries from the Republic of Ireland are doing good business.
Of course that may well go wrong depending on the ultimate circumstances on the EU/UK land border between two differing regulatory systems.

 

[Raheem]

Once border checks on the way in are added to the checks on the way out I think the driver shortage will get worse, because again who will want to do the job of driving to the uK to sit at borders for unknown hours when you’re paid by distance.

You're looking at it the wrong way. The less food comes into the country, the less there is to distribute. We could end up with a driver surplus.

 

[bimble]

Sure this distance thing is a load of nonsense

Is it per hour ? So that the more hours it takes you to get from a to b the more £ you get? I doubt it.

 

[editor]

Hardly nagging, merely an enquiry: given the regularity and stridency of the posting about Brexit food crisis by a number of posters on this thread.

It's odd, given that regularity and stridency, that when an idea is advanced to solve it, nobody on here wants to talk about it, but there we go. Anyway...

A number of newspapers have carried the same report today which quotes the following:

- The CEO of the Co-op, Steve Murrells, has called for a relaxation of visa rules to help fill the 100,000 HGV job vacancies and has pointed out that, in hs expert opinion, tempting back the 13,300 EU drivers who have left the EU will solve the problem.

Tom Bradshaw, has agreed and points out that a similar problem exists in meat processing. His insight is that Brexit has led to people leaving the industry to get jobs as courier drivers, and had sparked record absence records as people are pinged on the Covid app. But, a bigger problems looms over the industry: labour.

His solution is the same as Steve's and he points out (behind the paywall) that "we are seeing huge inflationary wage pressures. But all that does is move workers from one job to another and create a problem somewhere else" The problem is "that there is only one pool of labour": the solution is to create more pools of labour. Whilst Tom doesn't say it I do not think we need to think hard about where he suggests we might find these pools...

- The British Meat Processors Association chief executive Nick Allen has used his expertise to arrive at the same conclusion:. Meat industry workforce talent pool is turning into a talent puddle - BMPA

The question is a simple one: do you support them?

It's just talk and opinions - there's no figures or anything substantial behind their comments, nor have I heard anything from the unions.
I'll give you an opinion when there's something meaningful to comment on.

 

[Pickman's model]

Is it per hour ? So that the more hours it takes you to get from a to b the more £ you get? I doubt it.

Your doubt not a good substitute for your actual evidence, which I'd love to see

 

[bimble]

Your doubt not a good substitute for your actual evidence, which I'd love to see

I did a google. All the results were from America. So all I can say with certainty is that, in America, truck drivers are paid by the mile.

 

[Pickman's model]

I did a google. All the results were from America. So all I can say with certainty is that, in America, truck drivers are paid by the mile.

Ah but in Europe FACT CHECK: Are Eastern European truck drivers paid per km driven?