Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact
  • Hi Guest,
    We have now moved the boards to the new server hardware.
    Search will be impaired while it re-indexes the posts.
    See the thread in the Feedback forum for updates and feedback.
    Lazy Llama

4th July - March against Muslim Extremists Birmingham

Perhaps some dialogue with the EDL, maybe through UBA.
If you can convince them that demonstrations shouldn't be racist, and that their activity is counter productive, if it its aimed at attacking Islamic extremism by coming across as a racist mob, and theat everyone in a democratic society has the right to affiliate themselves to whatever Religous/Political affilition they want to(within reason) as long as they respect the rights of others, then possibly you can push a wedge between these 'potential' racists and Fascist politics?

Has anyone tried or is attempting to try dialogue for common ground?
 
durruti02 said:
it would be equally disasterous IF the left/@s are seen as 'anti-white' 'anti-english'
Click to expand...


They already are. Just by the very nature of the notion of 'Internationalism' it means that those on the left will always side with the non-indigenous/non-white side in anything. Its how the modern British left defines itself.

The Left has effectively abandoned the white working class in this country. Which is daft really because the only chance they ever stand of gaining any real political power is by getting them on side but they aint going to and will continue to just slide into obscurity.
 
Stoat Boy said:
They already are. Just by the very nature of the notion of 'Internationalism' it means that those on the left will always side with the non-indigenous/non-white side in anything. Its how the modern British left defines itself.

The Left has effectively abandoned the white working class in this country. Which is daft really because the only chance they ever stand of gaining any real political power is by getting them on side but they aint going to and will continue to just slide into obscurity.
Click to expand...

Its not internationalism that leads to what you describe in the first paragraph its a lack of class politics which leads to an abandonment of the working class and its intersts as whole.The white working class only exists as part of a class not as a part of whiteness.
 
durruti02 said:
but the point is that Choudrys lot are no better are they .. this EDL are on paper reacting against that ..
Click to expand...

Choudry, schmoudry.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/mar/18/religion-islam-anjem-muhajiroun

The man's an irrrelevant fucktard who gets wheeled out as bogeyman of the week every time a couple of daft lads wave crisp boxes at squaddies.. The day he mobilises a group of committed street fighters to march through a city centre threatening a minority group is the day I'll bother myself with him.
 
The39thStep said:
Its not internationalism that leads to what you describe in the first paragraph its a lack of class politics which leads to an abandonment of the working class and its intersts as whole.The white working class only exists as part of a class not as a part of whiteness.
Click to expand...


I would disagree. From what I understand the left came to political prominence because of its empowerment of and by what were, to all intents and purposes, the industrialised working classes of the northern hemisphere. And these were and remain primarily to this day white.

But the left has long since stopped having the interests of those white working classes at the heart of both its political agenda and its ideological aims.

Minority interests do matter but if you have abandoned the majority then you are destined to become irrelevant. As we are witnessing today.
 
Stoat Boy said:
I would disagree. From what I understand the left came to political prominence because of its empowerment of and by what were, to all intents and purposes, the industrialised working classes of the northern hemisphere. And these were and remain primarily to this day white.

But the left has long since stopped having the interests of those white working classes at the heart of both its political agenda and its ideological aims.

Minority interests do matter but if you have abandoned the majority then you are destined to become irrelevant. As we are witnessing today.
Click to expand...

when was the last time you were in a factory, distribution, logistics. packaging etc. enviroment? I can't talk for the rest of the country but the bolded statement is not the case for this town/county.
 
stoat boy is a boss these days. He's talking from that postition and is miles off. More to the point, the issues are there because of class not because of the colour of the people subject to those conditions.
 
butchersapron said:
stoat boy is a boss these days. He's talking from that postition and is miles off. More to the point, the issues are there because of class not because of the colour of the people subject to those conditions.
Click to expand...


All smashing except for the fact that the white working classes are quite obviously not supporting the non-Labour left. Now you can try and stick your heads in the sand about this and make all sorts of claims about class and the like but the fact remains that for many people from white working class backgrounds they are increasingly identifying the left as favouring non-whites/non-British people every time.

And its the votes of white British people that decide elections. Now you can either attempt to tackle these perceptions or you can just ignore them and watch even more white working class voters drift away.

This march for example has been organised, from what I can make out, by white working class people. Show me the equivilant thing happening on the left and I will accept that race has nothing to do with it.
 
Stoat Boy said:
All smashing except for the fact that the white working classes are quite obviously not supporting the non-Labour left. Now you can try and stick your heads in the sand about this and make all sorts of claims about class and the like but the fact remains that for many people from white working class backgrounds they are increasingly identifying the left as favouring non-whites/non-British people every time.

And its the votes of white British people that decide elections. Now you can either attempt to tackle these perceptions or you can just ignore them and watch even more white working class voters drift away.

This march for example has been organised, from what I can make out, by white working class people. Show me the equivilant thing happening on the left and I will accept that race has nothing to do with it.
Click to expand...

Regardless of whether the working class from any ethnic group are favouring the non-labour left, it's massively insulting to suggest that this orchestrated goon-show in any way represents the ideas of the majority of white working class people.
 
You're largely right in how the left are percieved but that's got nothing to with my point - which is about bosses smuggling in their postions as w/c simply because thy're white.
 
butchersapron said:
You're largely right in how the left are percieved but that's got nothing to with my point - which is about bosses smuggling in their postions as w/c simply because thy're white.
Click to expand...

I guess you have a point. But, and this might sound strange, given my time again there is part of me that thinks perhaps I would have rather enjoyed being part of something more politically on the left of things as opposed to my own entrenched libetarian right wing views and values.

But, and perhaps I sound a tad hysterical over this, I see the whole conventional ideal of the nation state just being erroded and have real fears for what will follow it because essentially it leaves a white working class just there for the taking in terms of political power. The left seem so immersed in this idea of internationalism and minority rights that they dont seem to have thought it through properly. For to long they have just assumed that the white working class will stay in line and still vote for them no matter what. And its not happening.

OK, so there are only two BNP MEP's and a small amount of councillors but they are still growing and taking votes. What is the left achieving ? Nothing, other than continue to alienate those who should be their very core vote.
 
Pigeon said:
Choudry, schmoudry.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/mar/18/religion-islam-anjem-muhajiroun

The man's an irrrelevant fucktard who gets wheeled out as bogeyman of the week every time a couple of daft lads wave crisp boxes at squaddies.. The day he mobilises a group of committed street fighters to march through a city centre threatening a minority group is the day I'll bother myself with him.
Click to expand...

hang on a sec .. maybe not choudrys mob (can't remember of hand) but someone like him helped push the london bombers on their path ..
 
Stoat Boy said:
I guess you have a point. But, and this might sound strange, given my time again there is part of me that thinks perhaps I would have rather enjoyed being part of something more politically on the left of things as opposed to my own entrenched libetarian right wing views and values.

But, and perhaps I sound a tad hysterical over this, I see the whole conventional ideal of the nation state just being erroded and have real fears for what will follow it because essentially it leaves a white working class just there for the taking in terms of political power. The left seem so immersed in this idea of internationalism and minority rights that they dont seem to have thought it through properly. For to long they have just assumed that the white working class will stay in line and still vote for them no matter what. And its not happening.

OK, so there are only two BNP MEP's and a small amount of councillors but they are still growing and taking votes. What is the left achieving ? Nothing, other than continue to alienate those who should be their very core vote.
Click to expand...

^^^^ so speaks the voice of the vast majority of people in the england .. lefties try to understand
 
Stoat Boy said:
I guess you have a point. But, and this might sound strange, given my time again there is part of me that thinks perhaps I would have rather enjoyed being part of something more politically on the left of things as opposed to my own entrenched libetarian right wing views and values.

But, and perhaps I sound a tad hysterical over this, I see the whole conventional ideal of the nation state just being erroded and have real fears for what will follow it because essentially it leaves a white working class just there for the taking in terms of political power. The left seem so immersed in this idea of internationalism and minority rights that they dont seem to have thought it through properly. For to long they have just assumed that the white working class will stay in line and still vote for them no matter what. And its not happening.

OK, so there are only two BNP MEP's and a small amount of councillors but they are still growing and taking votes. What is the left achieving ? Nothing, other than continue to alienate those who should be their very core vote.
Click to expand...

Aside from the decline of the nation state the rest of your observations would chime with all sorts from Cameron hence the realignment of his party's image, to the Rowntree Trust ,the Lib dems who have taken council seats from Labour and then New labour for years, in fact its pretty much now accepted by New labour themselves as the price for winning marginal seats and crucial votes in middle England. One of them I think it was John Denham actually said that there wasn't a majority mass in the country that believed in equality, compassion etc , which says something for what New Labour have managed to achieve.So thats a broad consensus now.

Hence the question about what next for those who see themselves as pro working class.

The nation state certaintly isn't being eroded, what is happending is that there are trade offs negotiated between them in which they all benefit. For those with good memories Nigel Harris wrote some intersting if flawed stuff on exactly this issue
 
"Originally Posted by Stoat Boy View Post
I guess you have a point. But, and this might sound strange, given my time again there is part of me that thinks perhaps I would have rather enjoyed being part of something more politically on the left of things as opposed to my own entrenched libetarian right wing views and values.

But, and perhaps I sound a tad hysterical over this, I see the whole conventional ideal of the nation state just being erroded and have real fears for what will follow it because essentially it leaves a white working class just there for the taking in terms of political power. The left seem so immersed in this idea of internationalism and minority rights that they dont seem to have thought it through properly. For to long they have just assumed that the white working class will stay in line and still vote for them no matter what. And its not happening.

OK, so there are only two BNP MEP's and a small amount of councillors but they are still growing and taking votes. What is the left achieving ? Nothing, other than continue to alienate those who should be their very core vote."



The39thStep said:
Aside from the decline of the nation state the rest of your observations would chime with all sorts from Cameron hence the realignment of his party's image, to the Rowntree Trust ,the Lib dems who have taken council seats from Labour and then New labour for years, in fact its pretty much now accepted by New labour themselves as the price for winning marginal seats and crucial votes in middle England. One of them I think it was John Denham actually said that there wasn't a majority mass in the country that believed in equality, compassion etc , which says something for what New Labour have managed to achieve.So thats a broad consensus now.

Hence the question about what next for those who see themselves as pro working class.

The nation state certaintly isn't being eroded, what is happending is that there are trade offs negotiated between them in which they all benefit. For those with good memories Nigel Harris wrote some intersting if flawed stuff on exactly this issue
Click to expand...

1) where did stoat boy say anything about 'equality,compassion etc' ..

2) the nation state is NOT being eroded??? .. sorry but this is way wrong .. a combination of thatcherite revolutionary economics (thatch saw NO country .. she was a globalist of the first order), significant migration and EU powers mean the UK nation is significantly eroded ..

and what is more important yet i NEVER see this is leftist writings is that the w/c has lost power significantly .. yes they note the decline of the trade unions but all the above processes have removed power from ordinary people too .. and powerless people are easy prey for fascism unless there is a solid left wing movement that appeals to their issues
 
durruti02 said:
you look at youtube comments!!; so where was the racist chanting on the day?

but the point is that Choudrys lot are no better are they .. this EDL are on paper reacting against that .. the left is in a really dangerous place here .. it WILL get identified with Islamism if it already has not ( GG / Respect etc etc ) .. and if it does it will be fucked simply
Click to expand...

The way farward is to speak out against extream Islam and the nazi bnp.

Why is one evil worse than the other.
 
Nigel said:
Perhaps some dialogue with the EDL, maybe through UBA.
If you can convince them that demonstrations shouldn't be racist, and that their activity is counter productive, if it its aimed at attacking Islamic extremism by coming across as a racist mob, and theat everyone in a democratic society has the right to affiliate themselves to whatever Religous/Political affilition they want to(within reason) as long as they respect the rights of others, then possibly you can push a wedge between these 'potential' racists and Fascist politics?

Has anyone tried or is attempting to try dialogue for common ground?
Click to expand...

Getting a common ground maybe a good way to beat the bnp and extream islam,while at the same time gaining support from some moderate muslims.

But too much of the left swp types are too much in defence of extream islam indirectly.
 
CUMBRIANDRAGON said:
Getting a common ground maybe a good way to beat the bnp and extream islam,while at the same time gaining support from some moderate muslims.

But too much of the left swp types are too much in defence of extream islam indirectly.
Click to expand...
I think that that is an over simplification of the views of the left(suspect you are talking about groups in RESPECT)

However dialogue with EDL, through groups such as UBA if nothing else may give us, if nothing else some sort of idea what beast we are dealing with.
 
durruti02 said:
"Originally Posted by Stoat Boy View Post
I guess you have a point. But, and this might sound strange, given my time again there is part of me that thinks perhaps I would have rather enjoyed being part of something more politically on the left of things as opposed to my own entrenched libetarian right wing views and values.

But, and perhaps I sound a tad hysterical over this, I see the whole conventional ideal of the nation state just being erroded and have real fears for what will follow it because essentially it leaves a white working class just there for the taking in terms of political power. The left seem so immersed in this idea of internationalism and minority rights that they dont seem to have thought it through properly. For to long they have just assumed that the white working class will stay in line and still vote for them no matter what. And its not happening.

OK, so there are only two BNP MEP's and a small amount of councillors but they are still growing and taking votes. What is the left achieving ? Nothing, other than continue to alienate those who should be their very core vote."





1) where did stoat boy say anything about 'equality,compassion etc' ..

2) the nation state is NOT being eroded??? .. sorry but this is way wrong .. a combination of thatcherite revolutionary economics (thatch saw NO country .. she was a globalist of the first order), significant migration and EU powers mean the UK nation is significantly eroded ..

and what is more important yet i NEVER see this is leftist writings is that the w/c has lost power significantly .. yes they note the decline of the trade unions but all the above processes have removed power from ordinary people too .. and powerless people are easy prey for fascism unless there is a solid left wing movement that appeals to their issues
Click to expand...

the term nation state isn't that helpful as it tends to be more of a phrase than a definition but I would take the broad concept that it is the opposite of a federal state , that it has a defined boundary, a common culture , common language, a decsion making structure ie Parliament in our case that makes laws and an identity.

The EEC is a voluntary agreement, states sign up to it because it is a way of doing trade offs that benefit the state and its bougeouisie , otherwise it wouldn't be in it would it?


1) he didn't. The point I was making was that his observation re the left and the working class is now pretty much ackwolededged by eevryone and that Denham was trying to expalin his view on why that was ie chasing marginal or key votes who would in his opinion not respond to an agenda of eqaulity/compassion etc . In fact this is what he said:

The group of people who sign up to a traditional egalitarian view of society (only 22% according to this research) tends to be older and more traditionally working class. In other words, a demographic that is actually shrinking in our society. And it doesn’t look as though it is big enough to build the sort of electoral coalition on which those traditional responses to poverty are going to be successful.

So the first thing we’ve got to take from this is that we’ve got to stop believing that where we really want to be is in that traditional 1960s version of egalitarianism. And in our own heads understand where popular sentiment is taking us. It is not that I reject the idea of tackling poverty and inequality – far from it. The challenge to inequality and poverty is absolutely core to being the people who we are on the left. But I’m interested in what is going to be successful. Successful electorally, to enable us to do stuff. And successful in actually challenging those problems. And we’re going to be more successful, in my view, if we adopt a more nuanced view of fairness and equality.
Click to expand...

2) Thatcher saw NO SOCIETY not no state .State powers under Thatcher grew as did state intervention in whole areas of public life. If you want a reminder of whether the staee has been dimished or that state powers were diminshed under Thatcher look at the miners strike.

btw In what way does migration in itself mean that the nation state is eroded?
 
The39thStep said:
the term nation state isn't that helpful as it tends to be more of a phrase than a definition but I would take the broad concept that it is the opposite of a federal state , that it has a defined boundary, a common culture , common language, a decsion making structure ie Parliament in our case that makes laws and an identity.

The EEC is a voluntary agreement, states sign up to it because it is a way of doing trade offs that benefit the state and its bougeouisie , otherwise it wouldn't be in it would it?

2) Thatcher saw NO SOCIETY not no state .State powers under Thatcher grew as did state intervention in whole areas of public life. If you want a reminder of whether the staee has been dimished or that state powers were diminshed under Thatcher look at the miners strike.

btw In what way does migration in itself mean that the nation state is eroded?
Click to expand...

yes thatcher saw no society, yes she saw the state clearly .. but not the nation part of it .. if you look at her acts ( her very first one did away with limits on how much money could be taken out of the 'nation state' .. all the privatisation laws ended up with 'british' companies and utilities being run by non UK comapanies) ... from the very beginning she made it clear that her loyalty was to 'capital' NOT the UK, or Britain etc

every govt has been happy to allow UK state powers to be diminished while those of the EU have increased .. the benefits for capital ( cheap A8 labour) have been shown ..

so NO these trade offs have NOT helped the nation state .. they have helped capital .. which is why Telegraph and Daily Mail readers get so upset

but that process has also rapidly diminished ( along with the Acts of the last few govts) w/c power

and migration? it has increased the power of the neo liberals while decreasing the concept of a 'united nation' .. nation building has always emphasised unity .. neo liberalism has emphasised multi culturalism ..

(again though i don't care a peanut about the nation state my interest is it has lessened the TUs ( the w/c key power source) control over 'labour' .. and henced their power )

BUT there are millions who DO .. and legitimately .. as i say they see it as theirs. this is a difficult for many cosmopolitan m/c lefties to understand but understand it they need to do ..
 
Nigel said:
I think that that is an over simplification of the views of the left(suspect you are talking about groups in RESPECT)

However dialogue with EDL, through groups such as UBA if nothing else may give us, if nothing else some sort of idea what beast we are dealing with.
Click to expand...

It'd be nice to know the names of BNP activists and members involved in the EDL to get a taste of their influence. Obviously Chris Renton is involved but apart from Fat Wigan an dhis clowns does anyone know of any other far right involvement?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

B
CJB July 24 july 94.
Replies
2
Views
628
DaveCinzano
DaveCinzano
C
Land Justice Fair-Make London a Commons! July 21st
Replies
11
Views
720
Sasaferrato
Sasaferrato
zedr
Actions Against Immigration Raids and the Hostile Environment
Replies
20
Views
2K
zedr
zedr
Gramsci
March for Palestine 21st October 2023/ photos
2
Replies
31
Views
2K
hitmouse
hitmouse
platinumsage
March for Palestine 14th & 28th October 2023
3 4 5 6 7
Replies
206
Views
10K
hitmouse
hitmouse
Back
Top Bottom