dylans
overlord of all acorns
Of course we should be bothering with them. It is completely unacceptable that a mob of racists should be left to scream racist abuse at shoppers in the middle of Birmingham city centre.
4th July - March against Muslim Extremists Birmingham
- Thread starter purplex
- Start date
Of course we should be bothering with them. It is completely unacceptable that a mob of racists should be left to scream racist abuse at shoppers in the middle of Birmingham city centre.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
and the idea of angry asian youths warring with EDF boneheads is not a pretty one.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Agreed. All the more reason to try and make a counter-demo as inclusive and multiracial as possible.
Fictionist
Serving Eargasms....
Yup, because that really addresses the issues at hand! Feeling warm and cosy in ideological la la land.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Yup, because that really addresses the issues at hand! Feeling warm and cosy in ideological la la land.
Well if it is ideological la la land to think that black, Asian and white people can stand together against a racist mob then we all should give up and go home.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i don't give a flying fuck about the racial make-up of any counter-demo as long as it's effective.
BruisedShins
New Member
amen to that. Although i think it is important that the counter demo isn't simply muslim lads because that only reinforces the idea of those in the EDL who think this country is at war with muslims. The worst moment of the demo last week was when the muslim lads started shouting "pakistan" and "allah akbar", this with the chants of "england" and "we want our country back" from the EDL just highlighted the worst parts of Multiculturalism.
I agree that the EDL should be countered on the 8th but i'm more interested in peoples ideas of how we counter them.
The reason the demo is starting at 6pm as opposed to 3pm like last time is because villa play fiorentina and the match finishes at 5pm. I'd imagine that there will be a lot of villa fans participating in the demo, i'd also hazard a guess that villa will be meeting up with Luton hooligans and god forbid wolves, blues, albion and Coventry hooligans in the pubs in aston after the game then heading towards birmingham after a pint. I don't know how well Luton and Wolves hooligans drinking in villa pubs will sit with some villa fans.
Fictionist
Serving Eargasms....
A meaningless platitude. The sort of statement designed to make an individual feel warm and cosy about themselves, without really addressing the issue at hand. How would you deal with the form of Islam being propogated by Mr AC and his friends?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
with respect, is that not a theological issue exacerbated and aided by current anti-muslim agendas within the media and geo-politics? In the mosque and in the greater sphere is where such radicalism should be defeated. It's an issue certainly, extremeist strands of any faith are a problem. But this is boots on the ground stuff, not a wider look at the issues.
I hope you get what I am trying to say.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
I don't think it is for me to "deal" with. It is for British muslims to do ( and, as luton showed, they are). I would encourage British Muslims to tackle the issue within their own communities while showing solidarity with them against anti muslim racists. I would argue with those influenced by islamist ideas for a multi racial response to racism.( as was done quite successfully last Saturday) I would point out the self defeating separatism inherent in Islamist nationalist ideology. I would try to demonstrate it by building a genuinely multi racial response to these racist demonstrations. The argument that we are all brummies and that the streets belong to all of us, is a good argument and one that people really related to. I am no fan of the SWP and I detest their "Nazi" cliches but the slogan "black and white unite and fight" is a good one that people can understand and get behind.
Platitudes? Ok, where the fuck were you on Saturday? What have you done to build any kind of response to these racist demonstrations? Or do you think it should just be ignored?
Exactly: an identifiably racially polarised response is precisely what the fuckers pulling these numbskulls' strings want. Which is why it's vitally important for local socialists, anarchists, and anti-racists to turn out in force on August 8th.
Is it really vitally important? What do you think will happen if no one turns up on the 8th but the EDL the police and shoppers who would be there anyway?
BruisedShins
New Member
If they don't have sufficient numbers we'll probbaly see 30 minutes of "we want our country back" and "dirty muslim bastards" being chanted by one group with "allah akbar" being chanted by some muslim lads who'll probably be joined in the chant by the SWP, either the police lines hold and after being kettled for 3 hours the EDL are let go in dribs and drabs or there are enough of the EDL to break through police lines and they chin a couple of Swups and get into a brawl with local muslims. That's if they decide to go to the bullring again.
If they've got decent numbers, say 300-500 like in Luton they'll probably do something more adventurous like rampaging through the city centre or if they're really hungry for publicity marching into small heath or Bordesley Green! For some reason i can't see them being stupid enough to get themselves stuck in a police cordon in the city centre again if they do manage to muster these sort of numbers.
In short it depends how many nutcases they attract and how eager for publicity/a ruck they are.
Or if there's anarchists/socialists there it'll stack up pretty much the same. Except if they are in sufficient numbers the police will get the riot cops out as soon as they look like they could break out of a cordon. They never put in an apearence on the 4th, unless they were in the vans that pulled into the bullring.
And none of it depends on how many anarchists/socialists/anti racists/shoppers/anyone else turn up on the day. Especially if they don't show up at the bull ring at all. Then it'll just be a lot of backslapping bollocks about how great the people who came are for confronting racism/fascism/whatever.
It's a waste of time.
BruisedShins
New Member
I'd say the turnout of anti-facsists on the day will be relevant either if they act on good intelligence (they find out exactly what the EDL are planning on doing and where) or if the EDL turnout in big enough numbers to do something other than get kettled. Obviously this would require a big turnout of anti-fascists, not just locally but from around the country, IF we could get a turnout of dedicated anti-fascists then we could offer some practical opposition to the EDL on the day, however if our numbers are small i'd agree that our presence would be irrelevant aside from ensuring the chanting isn't the words of one set of fundamentalists against another!
That's worse than doing nothing, chasing around looking for intelligence on a group that are utterly irrelevant to anything and only being able to act on it assuming any is obtained IF sufficient numbers turn up.
So what if the whole thing is a load of extremist slogan shouting, is that going to have any lasting impact on Birmingham? Is it fuck. Just as that Islamic nutter who converted a young boy (if it even happened) had no effect on anything except for exciting this bunch of fucktards.
I've been all "fuck, cunts, can't fucking believe this shit" myself but in the cold light of day they just aren't worth a shit. Fuck em.
It looks like something but really it isn't anything at all.
Fictionist
Serving Eargasms....
So essentially you are arguing that the very real issues that are are arising within Muslim communities throughout this country should be dealt with by Muslims? Why? Do you dread the feel of the accusation of cultural imperialism that heavily upon your shoulders?
As for the conflation of Islam and race - it is an agenda being used successfully by Muslims and some of their critics. But that doesn't make it right, agreeable or defendable as an intellectual idea. So whilst 'black and white unite' sounds great it has nothing to do with the issue!!
Your suggestion that we all march saying that the streets belong to all of us is attractive as an ideal, but it really will do nothing to address the problem posed by AC and many within the Muslim community. Effectively you are burying your head in the sand and hoping that with enough marches the problems will all go away. They won't, but it doesn't matter because you will feel warm about your community spirited altruism. You'll happily march against those you see as Nazi or Fascist but you'll ignore Mr AC. The hypocrisy!!
dylans
overlord of all acorns
I'm sorry but that is not the issue. The issue is that last a couple of weeks ago a mob of racist thugs turned up in the city centre and started racially abusing people.
And now, they wish to do it again with a bunch of up for it footy lads and I don't think we should let them.
As for my idealism, Well you said yourself it's attractive.
It is also easily communicated and understood. I saw for myself last Saturday, a group of young, excited, angry Muslim kids joined the UAF rally. Some of them clearly influenced by Islamist ideas. They saw and stood with white lefties.
They talked to people and they listened to different arguments. Arguments they had probably never heard before.
Socialist arguments, class arguments above all, internationalist arguments. That ordinary people have more in common with each other than we do with the bastards who own the world. And that racism and racists serve those bastards.
That this kid's mom and my mom have the right to go shopping on a Saturday afternoon without fear of abuse. That this is our city, all of ours.
Probably it made no difference whatsoever. Maybe, just maybe one of those kids thinks about it and gets a different perspective.
And if not? Nothing lost.
Fictionist
Serving Eargasms....
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Wow, best sign me up too then because I'd have the same reaction if they were round where I am. I never knew I was a swappie.
BruisedShins
New Member
I have to disagree mate, the people who saw that 12 year old being converted to Islam that i know were pretty much appalled by it, what's more their reaction to the EDL being on the streets has been, "i can see their point, did you see that video of the boy being converted?". It doesn't take much to excite the core of fucktards in the BNP and BFF, maybe a lady in a head scarf hands them their tablets in the morning or a black man pushes infront of them at Tesco's, but this situation is bringing in people who aren't your usual fucktards. Unfortunately the recruitment ground for fucktards is growing and all it's takes is for an "allah akbar" here or a "dirty muslim bastard" there to accentuate what to many is seen as a religious/racial divide.
I don't think an anti-fascist presence in Birmingham on 8th is going amount to any victory, small or large over the growth of the far right but i hope it can act to minimise the damage.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
This tbh.
If no one turns up it will be a lost opportunity to sign people up to the crazy SWP or one of the other tribal groups
and ALSO not ( at this stage) be ANTI the EDL demo .. they are NO worse than the Choudry's who they oppose .. they do NOT claim to be anti muslim but against the idea England be made a muslim country
i may be well wrong on this, as i was not there, but i have yet to hear any evidence that there were generalised racist chanting at the demo .. all the videos show is crass pro england chanting .. the are suggestions that some of the people shouted BNP .. as equally i have read local muslim kids were chanting Pakistan and Allah Akbah ..
it would be equally disasterous IF the left/@s are seen as 'anti-white' 'anti-english'
the SWP intervention is thick imho .. it will be seen clearly by most people as being against the EDL and in defecne of Choudry .. and frankly most people will support the EDL demos over a Choudry demo
1) mob of racist thugs ..lol
2) you see ( but donlt get it ) this is EXACTLY what is in the minds of millions of 'english' people .. THEY feel THEY have lost control of where they live .. we can agree that nationalism is a wrong answer but if you can not understand this basic fact you have NO solution to defeating the rise of the right wing
3) yes it IS lost if the left/@s are associated with the defence of Islamism instead of the defence of the w/c as a whole
I think some people forget the simple numbers game .. muslims at the last census totalled 1.5 million .. only 3% of the UKs population ..
If the left wanted to get a name for itself they would do a simultaneous hit on both Choudry and the BNP
It's precisely to stop the event being presented as a clash between Islamists and racists that the left needs to have a presence.
And while the EDF claim to be anti-islamic extremism ,the reality's quite different: here's a couple of comments from YouTube supporting the demo -
"fuck muslims. people like this are what england needs".
"were the muzzies actually offended by these demos? i fucking hope so! civil war is upon us be ready for war people the only people that can take england back is ourselves."
"we need more of these demos...itts time we fought back against the goat fuckers.. "
"oh why didnt anyone tell me about this..an anti muslim demo....heaven..... "
"we need to start driving them out.. "
"good call. this might sound extream but i think if they just outlawed mosques they'd all fuck off the way they came "
"Britain will only be a good place again when every Muslim is expelled from this country .."
"The Muslim world lives in the stone ages.. ".
There's stuff on their facebook pages about closing down mosques and boycotting Muslim-owned businesses. In other words, the definition of "Islamic extremist" being used here is...anyone who's a Muslim. One of the chants on the day was "Allah is a Christian". Whatever the leaders of this crew might profess, the EDL's supporters are under no `illusions whatsoever about what they represent.
So yeah: I reckon the definition of the EDL as a "racist mob" is pretty accurate. And if it's not the purpose of the left to stand alongside communities whom other people seek to "drive out", then the left would appear to have no purpose.
you look at youtube comments!!; so where was the racist chanting on the day?
but the point is that Choudrys lot are no better are they .. this EDL are on paper reacting against that .. the left is in a really dangerous place here .. it WILL get identified with Islamism if it already has not ( GG / Respect etc etc ) .. and if it does it will be fucked simply
but the point is that Choudrys lot are no better are they .. this EDL are on paper reacting against that .. the left is in a really dangerous place here .. it WILL get identified with Islamism if it already has not ( GG / Respect etc etc ) .. and if it does it will be fucked simply
Sorry mate but that's a pile of shite.
It's easy to get caught up in it, too see it that way but it just isn't the way it is.
The EDL have overshot the mark by fucking miles and they know it. Right enough there's plenty of people who are fucked off with Islamic extremism but I just don't see them as being ready to make the leap that all muslims are evil terrorists. People aren't that thick.
People who get tangled up in this will only do so because they have no other purpose.
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