1914-18 : The Great Slaughter - Challenging A Year Of Myth Making.

[frogwoman]

Funny because disturbing.

I found that story of the girl being squashed by a statue a bit grim

 

[phildwyer]

He was a proper cunt. He was part of some society specifically set up to hate Jews.

Presumably that explains why Pickman's Model is so fascinated by him.

 

[frogwoman]

And that girl who got killed by a balloon

 

[frogwoman]

Wtf was that kid getting eaten by a lion about? He had a bit of a depraved imagination, as a child of 6 or so his book freaked me out a bit.

 

[phildwyer]

Wtf was that kid getting eaten by a lion about?

He hadn't gone a yard when--Bang!
With open Jaws, a lion sprang,
And hungrily began to eat
The Boy: beginning at his feet.
Now, just imagine how it feels
When first your toes and then your heels,
And then by gradual degrees,
Your shins and ankles, calves and knees,
Are slowly eaten, bit by bit.
No wonder Jim detested it!

 

[Greebo]

I got given one of his books as a child, it was funny but disturbing.

The same could be said of Edward Lear and Ogden Nash, not to mention Harry Graham.

Wtf was that kid getting eaten by a lion about? He had a bit of a depraved imagination, as a child of 6 or so his book freaked me out a bit.

That book of cautionary verse was intended as a parody of early highly moralistic and "improving" reading matter for children.

BTW it might be worth bearing in mind that every single bit of gore in Roald Dahl's fiction for children was tested on his own children. They sometimes wanted far more gruesome bits than he felt comfortable writing.

 

[Pickman's model]

Where does it say he was a right-winger, fool?

the bit i underlined. but there's also this little gem:

Although he admired Mussolini, Belloc detested Hitler, particularly the German's anti-Jewish ravings, and he was outspoken with anger and pity when his prophecy fromThe Jews began to come true within his lifetime.
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/bio/hilaire-belloc

 

[Pickman's model]

He was a proper cunt. He was part of some society specifically set up to hate Jews.

one of the reasons, i imagine, why dwyer loves him so.

 

[frogwoman]

the bit i underlined. but there's also this little gem:

Although he admired Mussolini, Belloc detested Hitler, particularly the German's anti-Jewish ravings, and he was outspoken with anger and pity when his prophecy fromThe Jews began to come true within his lifetime.
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/bio/hilaire-belloc

He shouldn't have fucking written it then

 

[Pickman's model]

Presumably that explains why Pickman's Model is so fascinated by him.

you used to be a much better troll than you are now

 

[seventh bullet]

there were forced population movements through the whole of Stalin's rule. Most took place either during the purges or shortly after ww2. Some were just to be somewhere else, others were moved with the knowledge that the place they were being moved to would not have been able to support that level of population, even with resources and time. Although individuals would have been able to survive, the culture of that group would not.

A Russian friend who is Koryo-saram was born in Tashkent. Her grandparents were deported with the entire Soviet Korean population to the Central Asian republics of Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan from the Russian Far East for fear of collaborating with the Japanese in Manchuria.

The Soviet government's treatment of certain populations or national groups as a whole was devastating from the point of view of the Stalinists, as it was it bound up in the Stalinist conception of socialism itself.

I know you don't think this, but it's unwise to think of the 1930s terror as just 'the purges,' as in the removal of Communist Party members and important people from government institutions, or to see it as just a cynical reorganisation of the bureaucracy by Stalin, as it focuses on the terror only partially. The three state security 'mass operations' affected a huge number of other people.

When the terror was at its height, nearly 700,000 people were put to death within two years (that's from official Soviet documentation, not a figure pulled out of Robert Conquest's arse), and most of them were just ordinary people deemed to be anti-social elements in the new Soviet society in which the foundations for socialism had been laid and a massive and in their minds sincere defence (an inevitability,) of that socialism was mounted.

But that's the deaths. When you came to its attention, the Stalinist government didn't just come for you, it came for your family. A Stolypin carriage awaited them while you met a bullet.

 

[seventh bullet]

And actually the dominant opinion these days is that north korea's government is closer on an ideological level to the far-right.

It's an interesting view, but not a dominant one, is it?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Another group of Soviet citizens purged by Stalin were his own troops who were returned to the USSR following captivity by the Germans.

 

[likesfish]

It's an interesting view, but not a dominant one, is it?

Tbf at that level of horror left and right dont really matter.

 

[stowpirate]

Another group of Soviet citizens purged by Stalin were his own troops who were returned to the USSR following captivity by the Germans.

Possibly worried that some may be subversives? Interesting that on the other side of the pond McCarthyism took root.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

 

[phildwyer]

It's an interesting view, but not a dominant one, is it?

It's a completely nutty view if you ask me.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Wasn't sure where to put this: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/world-war-1-foundation-year.319256/#post-12837788 but it's relevant to this thread I think.

 

[seventh bullet]

Tbf at that level of horror left and right dont really matter.

No offence, but I don't really value your opinion on this stuff.

 

[seventh bullet]

It's a completely nutty view if you ask me.

Well, I was thinking of the period of Japanese colonialism in Korea and its influence on Korean society even when the Communists were installed by the Soviet army (I may be wrong but I think frogwoman is stretching Brian Myer's opinion as being mainstream). Mind you. Imperial Japan from the interwar years wasn't fascist, was it?

I think Myer's views are interesting, but I'm more into the safer Stalinised Marxism-Leninism and traditional Korean male-dominated authoritarianism converging in some form, while being aware that DPRK society has, in some respects, gone beyond the bounds of what a Communist would consider Marxist-Leninist 'socialism.' Or did do. The DPRK government officially made it known it had jettisoned such a thing years ago.

 

[phildwyer]

Well, I was thinking of the period of Japanese colonialism in Korea and its influence on Korean society even when the Communists were installed by the Soviet army (I may be wrong but I think frogwoman is stretching Brian Myer's opinion as being mainstream). Mind you. Imperial Japan from the interwar years wasn't fascist, was it?

I think Myer's views are interesting, but I'm more into the safer Stalinised Marxism-Leninism and traditional Korean male-dominated authoritarianism converging in some form, while being aware that DPRK society has, in some respects, gone beyond the bounds of what a Communist would consider Marxist-Leninist 'socialism.' Or did do. The DPRK government officially made it known it had jettisoned such a thing years ago.

I don't know Myer. I suppose one could argue that North Korea is authoritarian, racist-nationalist and has a personality cult--the leader of which espouses an idiosyncratic official ideology. But none of those alone, nor even all of them together, qualify a state as "far right" or even "right wing." One might say much the same, albeit in far less extreme form, about Ataturk's Turkey and many other regimes.

I tend towards the view that NK is yet another of those instances which the Left/Right dichotomy is manifestly inadequate to describe.

I will say though, that according to my South Korean mate (who despises them), the Kim dynasty is extremely popular in the North. Largely I gather because of its founder's role in the wartime resistance. Again the parallel that suggests itself is with Ataturk.

 

[seventh bullet]

His view is that Japanese colonialism and what he sees as Japanese fascism had a significant influence on the formation of DPRK, other than just Soviet-installed Stalinism. That is what I thought frogwoman was referring to. She's been reading his book The Cleanest Race recently. I don't think DPRK is far-right.

 

[phildwyer]

His view is that Japanese colonialism and what he sees as Japanese fascism had a significant influence on the formation of DPRK, other than just Soviet-installed Stalinism. That is what I thought frogwoman was referring to. She's been reading his book The Cleanest Race recently. I don't think DPRK is far-right.

Just took a look on Amazon, seems fascinating.

I did know that the Japanese occupation influenced Kim, but I'd thought it was a case of him defining his regime against theirs, rather than imitating them. But I suppose its a fine line etc.

I see no reason to call him either far-right or far-left.

 

[Pickman's model]

Just took a look on Amazon, seems fascinating.

I did know that the Japanese occupation influenced Kim, but I'd thought it was a case of him defining his regime against theirs, rather than imitating them. But I suppose its a fine line etc.

I see no reason to call him either far-right or far-left.

so you thought that being defining his regime against them would not involve him being influenced by them. what a sorry excuse for an academic you are.

 

[phildwyer]

so you thought that being defining his regime against them would not involve him being influenced by them.

Pickman's, read what you have written here again please.

Do you see that it makes no sense?

Do you see that it bears no relation to the message to which you are supposedly responding?

Do you acknowledge it as the meaningless gibberish of an apparent madman?

If so, we can talk.

 

[Pickman's model]

Pickman's, read what you have written here again please.

Do you see that it makes no sense?

Do you see that it bears no relation to the message to which you are supposedly responding?

Do you acknowledge it as the meaningless gibberish of an apparent madman?

If so, we can talk.

1) you seem to think that you know fucking everything when as is repeatedly apparent you know fuck all. 2) this would not matter so much if you could reason, but as is apparent from this exchange, you can't.

if someone defines themselves in opposition to something - be that kim and the japanese or the occident and orient - then they are being influenced by them in their own self-definition.

now fuck off.

 

[phildwyer]

if someone defines themselves in opposition to something - be that kim and the japanese or the occident and orient - then they are being influenced by them in their own self-definition.

And that, fool, is precisely what I said. Look:

I did know that the Japanese occupation influenced Kim, but I'd thought it was a case of him defining his regime against theirs, rather than imitating them

See?

Since you are evidently incapable of comprehending simple written English, I fear there can be little benefit for you in remaining on ths thread.

 

[Greebo]

you used to be a much better troll than you are now

Better troll, worse debater. I can live with that changing, as could you.

 

[dylanredefined]

Another group of Soviet citizens purged by Stalin were his own troops who were returned to the USSR following captivity by the Germans.

And some partisans who were just deemed a bit independent.

 

[Pickman's model]

And that, fool, is precisely what I said. Look:



See?

Since you are evidently incapable of comprehending simple written English, I fear there can be little benefit for you in remaining on ths thread.

read at work repent at leisure. now, while you've got that glow from getting one up on me, how's about you look back and respond to #633. i have been waiting some time.

 

[phildwyer]

read at work repent at leisure. now, while you've got that glow from getting one up on me, how's about you look back and respond to #633. i have been waiting some time.

Oh very well.

so because you say the genocide (raphael lemkin) was committed 'mostly by kurds', and not ethnic turks, it was in fact not a genocide - lemkin was iyo wrong - and the successor state to the now deceased empire should not be blamed.

1. The fact that the Armenian massacres were mostly carried out by Kurds has no bearing on the question of whether they count as genocide.

2. Earlier in the thread I said that I would accept the term "genocide" to describe those massacres, so long as the same term is used to describe the massacres of Poles, Irish, Sioux, Tasmanians and so on. By this definition history shows thousands of genocides.

3. Of course the modern Turkish republic cannot be blamed for actions carried out a century ago under the direction of the multi-ethnic Ottoman Empire.