14th November Movement for Left Unity

[nino_savatte]

your problem, we need a decent left of centre party to oppose NL, in my home town, it isn't looking serious, I want it to get more than .04 of the vote.

No, it isn't my "problem", it' your problem and it's also the problem of those whose self-defeatism and tribalism prevents any real progress. I take it you've come across the phrase "self-fulfilling prophecy"? Do you really thinking you can build a mass movement in the blink of an eye? Think on.

 

[mk12]

Is the SWP involved in this?

 

[nino_savatte]

Apparently the left unity tweeted a link to this petition which seems to want to make it illegal for social services to take at risk children into care unless their parents have already been convicted with a criminal offence. I hope that's some kind of mistake, otherwise I think they may be taking this 'UKIP of the left' thing a little bit too seriously.

Yeah, the key word here is "apparently".

 

[nino_savatte]

Is the SWP involved in this?

In my wee group of 10, there are 2 ex-SWP, 1 ex-SLP, a former French tankie, 2 SP members. The rest (including myself) are non-aligned.

 

[treelover]

eh,

No, it isn't my "problem", it' your problem and it's also the problem of those whose self-defeatism and tribalism prevents any real progress. I take it you've come across the phrase "self-fulfilling prophecy"? Do you really thinking you can build a mass movement in the blink of an eye? Think on.

Eh, that's my whole point, we can't do the same old same old, as these remnants of failed 19th C ideologies seem to want to do, it will be a long hard slog, though they seem to want to jump on the 'sexy' issues.

 

[nino_savatte]

eh,


Eh, that's my whole point, we can't do the same old same old, as these remnants of failed 19th C ideologies seem to want to do, it will be a long hard slog, though they seem to want to jump on the 'sexy' issues.

That's a generalisation.

 

[treelover]

I'm talking about one branch, others seem very innovative

 

[SpineyNorman]

Yeah, the key word here is "apparently".

I said apparently because I hadn't seen the tweet with my own eyes but the person who told me about it wasn't likely to have made it up - if he was I wouldn't have posted without checking first.

And what would you know? He wasn't making it up. So is the key word still apparently nino?

 

[nino_savatte]

I said apparently because I hadn't seen the tweet with my own eyes but the person who told me about it wasn't likely to have made it up - if he was I wouldn't have posted without checking first.

And what would you know? He wasn't making it up. So is the key word still apparently nino?

People often tweet or retweet stuff they don't agree with or endorse. Eh, norm?

 

[SpineyNorman]

People often tweet or retweet stuff they don't agree with or endorse. Eh, norm?

Come on, that's feeble.


Left Unity ‏@LeftUnityUK
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They're quite clearly putting it out there for people to sign. It's not a retweet, they're tweeting it.

As I said, I hope it's a mistake. It's not really for me to request that it's taken down as I'm not involved in LU but if I was I'd be concerned about it and I'd want to find out why it happened. Your dismissive attitude towards this seems pretty irresponsible.

I wonder what you'd be saying if the IWCA or someone else that offends your liberal sensibilities had posted it.

 

[belboid]

your problem, we need a decent left of centre party to oppose NL, in my home town, it isn't looking serious, I want it to get more than .04 of the vote.

the Socialist Alliance - full of all those old trots and commies you hate - got more than 300 times .04% last time we stood here. So your 'analysis' seems rather...shite. As does your desire for a 'left of centre' party - we have several of those already. Join the Greens, that's what you want after all.

 

[belboid]

They're quite clearly putting it out there for people to sign. It's not a retweet, they're tweeting it.

it looks like there is one person for whom this is THE issue, and she has the ear of.....well, whoever controls the LU twitter account at least. That is part of the problem of not having any firm policy and a non-hierarchical 'anyone can post anything' - some right old shite gets out their amidst the decent stuff.

 

[teqniq]

That tweet seems pretty ill-considered to me.

 

[nino_savatte]

Come on, that's feeble.


Left Unity ‏@LeftUnityUK
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They're quite clearly putting it out there for people to sign. It's not a retweet, they're tweeting it.

As I said, I hope it's a mistake. It's not really for me to request that it's taken down as I'm not involved in LU but if I was I'd be concerned about it and I'd want to find out why it happened. Your dismissive attitude towards this seems pretty irresponsible.

Oh? It's interesting how that tweet doesn't appear on the timeline on the website.
http://leftunity.org/

I wonder what you'd be saying if the IWCA or someone else that offends your liberal sensibilities had posted it.

Oh, I'm a "liberal" because I disagree with you or ask questions about the IWCA? Now that really is feeble... and lazy.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Oh? It's interesting how that tweet doesn't appear on the timeline on the website.
http://leftunity.org/



Oh, I'm a "liberal" because I disagree with you or ask questions about the IWCA? Now that really is feeble.

No, you're a liberal because, well, you're a liberal. I disagree with the IWCA on plenty of things, I ask questions about the IWCA. I mentioned them to try and make you think about how it looks to those of us on the outside and to those who don't just try and come up with knee-jerk rationalisations for this kind of stuff.

Thankfully there are grownups on this site too and one of them has answered my question sensibly and honestly.

 

[nino_savatte]

No, you're a liberal because, well, you're a liberal. I disagree with the IWCA on plenty of things, I ask questions about the IWCA. I mentioned them to try and make you think about how it looks to those of us on the outside and to those who don't just try and come up with knee-jerk rationalisations for this kind of stuff.

Rubbish. You don't even know me IRL. What you're actually saying is that anyone who doesn't support the IWCA's position is a "liberal". Yeah, that's really weak. You've sort of taken our disagreement personally. Haven't you?

Thankfully there are grownups on this site too and one of them has answered my question sensibly and honestly.

Yeah, that's right, use the old "grown ups" line. Says a lot about your debating skills.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Rubbish. You don't even know me IRL. What you're actually saying is that anyone who doesn't support the IWCA's position is a "liberal". Yeah, that's really weak. You've sort of taken our disagreement personally. Haven't you?

Not really no, why would I take it personally? You're pretty much the dictionary definition of a wet liberal though - your politics is all about wishful thinking and denying anything inconvenient. It's a classic case.

Yeah, that's right, use the old "grown ups" line. Says a lot about your debating skills.

Well it does seem a bit childish to first deny what had happened happened, then to claim they tweeted it, without any kind of critical comment, because they disagree with it. Then to continue to try and avoid explaining it. Belboid just gave a straight answer. I don't really understand why you couldn't have done that, or if you didn't know why just say so. It's just a bit childish.

 

[ska invita]

it looks like there is one person for whom this is THE issue, and she has the ear of.....well, whoever controls the LU twitter account at least. That is part of the problem of not having any firm policy and a non-hierarchical 'anyone can post anything' - some right old shite gets out their amidst the decent stuff.

yeah, ive a lot of experience of working with simliarly not too structured places and this kind of thing happens all the time - you have to let it slide... the logical conclusion of an Official Line being put to the test at every turn means you end up with a Pravda model - either that or have a concensus achieving meeting before anyone does anything.

 

[belboid]

well, the twitter account has had a couple of complaints about that tweet now, lets see if owt comes of it (or if they just think Sheffield is full of social services loving liberals, or summat).

Cant help but think of 'Ladybird, Ladybird' and its attitude to social workers (that caused some really cracking debate in the SWP between the social workers and.. well, everyone else), and I wonder of that has anything to do with why anyone might have thought said tweet was a good idea in the first place.

 

[nino_savatte]

Not really no, why would I take it personally? You're pretty much the dictionary definition of a wet liberal though - your politics is all about wishful thinking and denying anything inconvenient. It's a classic case.

Really? That's breathtaking stuff coming from someone I've never met and who's never met me. Don't give up the day job, norm.

Well it does seem a bit childish to first deny what had happened happened, then to claim they tweeted it, without any kind of critical comment, because they disagree with it. Then to continue to try and avoid explaining it. Belboid just gave a straight answer. I don't really understand why you couldn't have done that, or if you didn't know why just say so. It's just a bit childish.

Your imagination is working overtime here. But did you ask me a direct question about the tweet? Well, you didn't. The question you asked was " So is the key word still apparently nino"? It's interesting how the tweet in question doesn't actually appear on the website's timeline.

 

[nino_savatte]

Oh and for the record, how is the IWCA thread related to this one?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Really? That's breathtaking stuff coming from someone I've never met and who's never met me. Don't give up the day job, norm.



Your imagination is working overtime here. But did you ask me a direct question about the tweet? Well, you didn't. The question you asked was " So is the key word still apparently nino"? It's interesting how the tweet in question doesn't actually appear on the website's timeline.

You really do need to grow up.

Oh and for the record, how is the IWCA thread related to this one?

It isn't. Nobody said it was. I wanted you to consider what you'd think about it if it were a group you don't approve of that had posted it - the only person who has mentioned the IWCA thread is you so maybe you should be asking that question of yourself.

Anyway, I've got better things to do than help you ruin this thread so that's it from me.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Cant help but think of 'Ladybird, Ladybird' and its attitude to social workers (that caused some really cracking debate in the SWP between the social workers and.. well, everyone else), and I wonder of that has anything to do with why anyone might have thought said tweet was a good idea in the first place.

What was ladybird ladybird?

 

[belboid]

What was ladybird ladybird?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladybird,_Ladybird_(film)

Christ, its twenty years old! A great film, Loach at his peak. About a woman and her struggle with social services to get her kids back. At one point she does walk into a door, and I'm sure you can guess the consequences.

I'm not doing it justice, one of Kens best.

 

[mk12]

In my wee group of 10, there are 2 ex-SWP, 1 ex-SLP, a former French tankie, 2 SP members. The rest (including myself) are non-aligned.

OK, cheers. Do you have a local SWP?

Is there a national 'line' on Left Unity amongst the party?

 

[treelover]

thinking of getting involved, you would be welcomed.

 

[Nefarious Moose]

Missed my first meeting last night of the Leeds group but had the minutes through this morning and a quick chat with one of the core members. Thirty-two in attendance plus three apologies for absence makes it our biggest planning meeting so far with a few new faces, some thought to have come forward from the public launch meeting, some apparently finding their way to it after conversations with members out campaigning on the ground, anti-EDL demo we attended last weekend for instance. Continues to bode well, I'm encouraged by it. It's all baby steps at the minute as we find our feet and we've got to work at retaining those whose curiosity gets them to their first meeting but I'd call that a positive development at this stage. Onwards and upwards.

I would strongly encourage anyone who hasn't yet to get to their local group meetings. What can it hurt? I would rather try and fail than never try at all. Never even making the beginning is a guarantee of failure, if it doesn't come off we only have ourselves to blame for not making it happen.

 

[caleb]

I would strongly encourage anyone who hasn't yet to get to their local group meetings. What can it hurt? I would rather try and fail than never try at all. Never even making the beginning is a guarantee of failure, if it doesn't come off we only have ourselves to blame for not making it happen.

Yeah, but the issue isn't 'trying' but trying the same thing and failing in the same way. Endlessly.

 

[treelover]

Watch it, you will get shouted down...

 

[butchersapron]

Watch it, you will get shouted down...

Can't you change the record? I have as many criticisms of the trad left and how they played a part in their own downfall as you - but your incessant whining doesn't help outline or address them in any way. Nor does your ridiculous flip side that LU has changed the face of the left and a definitive recomposition has now taken place boosterism. Think about how you behave on here - as you have counseled so many others to do.