If you read butcher's first few posts on this thread you can see he is anti-BNP. To be fair it is a little cryptic - but then he wasn't preaching.
Now that I know his stance on the BNP it's easier to look back and see he is anti BNP. You've have the benefit of knowing him for some time. At the time of the OP I didn't know him from Adam. I regret doubting him but I was genuinely unsure and asked for clarification,
You seem to have needed to establish a relation with BA on the basis of either he explains to you how you should think or you explain to him how to think or a bit of both. If he contradicts your ideas about what the BNP are, you feel at risk of being disorientated - you're not comfortable working things out for yourself, you need guidance. There is the alternative in your mind where it's actually butchers who needs guidance (perhaps he's a BNP sympathiser). Someone has to guide someone else.
I am very opinionated, not always factually so, it's one of my flaws. I was seeking either common ground, understanding and perspective which I was unsure of. Once it was established I became more concillatory, the main reason was that once it was shown that I was wrong it continued to be a case of rubbing my nose in it.
This is a sectish mentality in my opinion. The question in my mind is, "what's your sect?" I don't think it is a political sect - you don't seem particularly political except for your anti-racism. Also bippipitybop and Y I Otter do not share your sectishness so it's not to do with Moot Stormfront. I'm pretty sure it's because you are a religious man.
I'm not religious in the slightest, I have very strong views regarding religion in general and non of it positive same for politics, too many vested interests and too much dogma for my liking.
Judging by your reaction to okgirl, I think if butchers had turned out to be a BNP sympathiser you would have treated him much more warmly. You don't mind so much what people think or what they do - they can be made to see the error of their ways and forgiven.
Typically I treat racists as scum. I try to make a distinction between the rabid WN racist scumbags and the misguided racist leaning person, I believe if that you understand an opposing POV you are better able to deal with it.
But you mind greatly if someone causes you confusion - perhaps threatening schisms in the church of anti-fascism. You complain bitterly that people on the same side should not be abrasive to each other. Doubting dogma is allowed, but only if you treat it with respect. This attitude maps on to Catholicism pretty closely.
Only if I believe that we are "on the same side", you can hold differing views, be incorrect in your assumptions or just plain stupid sometimes, we can all be guilty of it. I would expect someone on the same side to be more explicit when asked. My confusion could have been sorted early on.
You could try asking him.
I have apologised to BA but I haven't actually accused him of being a fascist I may have given that impression when I asked him to clarify his position. As for PM he came out to the woodwork and jumped on the bandwagon because he thought he could score some kind of internet points victory, all he achieved in my eyes was confirming that he was a confrontational dickhead.
VP has shown almost heroic levels of patience throughout this thread. I'm pissed off on his behalf that you've said that.
That's your opinion and you welcome to it, as the recipient of his confrontation I view it differently and I still maintain PM he was being a dick.
BTW. I keep saying VP for some reason
, Violent Panda is a poster that I'm beginning to respect already. He has been very patient, I wish I'd stop confusing VP with PM!!
i used to post on msf maaaaaaaaaaaaany years ago. in fact i was one of the founding members of the site and was very good friends with the guy who set it up. I stopped for a number of reasons but one of the main ones was because, among other reasons, of the fact that there were people on that site who were actually colluding and even friendly with fascists and becoming steadily more and more like the people they supposedly opposed and to be honest I didn't see how it could be a constructive place for debate or anything else of the kind when its focus was simply about "ego-wars" between racists and anti fash.
no idea what its like now mind. i stopped posting around 2006 and havent looked at it since. btw, vp and butchers are two of the people i respect the most on here. you certainly wouldn't get me saiyng that if they were fash.
The stance of MSF is to be civil to those with opposing views, the rancid rabid racists are soon gone. It's a shame because MSF was the first forum I posted on and there were some excellent antifascist posters, albeit it was after you left. Otter and I didn't like the direction the forum was going which was as you described so I bought the site and handed it over to Otter. He is more pragmatic and knowledable than I am and I get into a war of words too easily.
Mr A?:confused
ETA. You do realise that Mr A. Is not an SW member? This is just some working class guy I assume, interested in anti-fascism, but who butch considered too stupid to be worth talking to, who just wanted a clear delineation of butchers alternative.
Correct, from a working class background in Hull of places, one of only a handful of non whites back in the 70's and a victim of racism on a regular basis. Moving to Brixton in the late 70's changed my whole perspective!
WHY! After 21 pages has nobody been able to put Mr. A out of his misery, and explain 'butchers alternative'?
At the end of the day BA is anti BNP and that's enough, if he wants to enlighten me at some point I'd be happy to listen. As far as PM is concened I'm just going to ignore him.
Looking at your thread regarding resources and events concerning the BNP is an approach that I thought was worthwhile, I still can't figure out the hostility to it from some.
