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    Lazy Llama

BNP leader faces jail!!

The Black Hand said:
1) Of course your research can be characterised like that. At least you are conceeding this is what I originally meant. Well done.

2) Give over Larry, I am not playing ball for you. I have said repeatedly that I will not. Remember you hurled abuse first by calling me a liar, if you improve your pr, and don't jump in and call me a liar straight away next thread/time I just maybe bothered to do as you ask.

But not now, no. So stop whinging about it Saint Larry and get on with writing something useful (i nearly added 'for a change then').

3) As I said Larry, if you read my points. It was a chatty bulletin board comment, as if I was talking down the pub. It is not an academic submission for publication, and that is why it is unfinished. You are so very precious, 'demanding this and demanding that'... Get over yourself, you and your research are not important.:eek::D
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More lying evidence-free garbage: what a useless tosser you are.
 
Knotted said:
It's obvious you don't understand Marx here. Marx is saying that truth is not a property of thought. He's effectively saying that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. He is not saying that truth is unimportant, that theory and facts are mere academic (or scholastic) exercises. You can't use Marx when complaining that factual statements about the BNP are worthless if they are not "critical" ie. they don't go through a ritual of stating opposition to the BNP.

This thread is interesting because of three poster's attitude to political discourse.

RMP3 and MrA need rituals of diplomacy before disagreements can be aired.

They are joined by Black Hand in the need for rituals of opposition to the BNP.

We should understand the religious nature of sectarianism. All these rituals.

Having said that I doubt THB has a sectarian agenda. Unless you count BH as a sect with one member. MrA is probably Catholic (as a guess).
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Are you on a lot of drug's?
 
Knotted said:
Is this a product of sheer idiocy - ie. does THB not understand Marx's sentence structure. Or is it a product of sheer cinicism - ie. does THB believe he can warp Marx for his own purposes and he thinks he can get away with it because he assumes that everyone else is too stupid to understand Marx's sentence structure?

I'm inclined to think the latter.
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Well let's face it, misinterpretation/misrepresentation of Marx's oeuvre by people wanting to use his work in support of their own ends is hardly a new game, is it?

Personally, I've found that if I selectively quote words and phrases from The Communist Manifesto, On The Paris Commune and Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right, then you can get Marx to say "The Black Hand is the opium of the masses". ;)
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
Are you on a lot of drug's?
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That's a question that misses his point, which is that you and MrA, as well as TBH, have shown through your contributions that you favour a particular "method" of anti-fascism that involves conformity to your particularistic "rules of engagement" before you'll contribute to the discourse.
 
Knotted said:
It's obvious you don't understand Marx here. Marx is saying that truth is not a property of thought. He's effectively saying that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. He is not saying that truth is unimportant, that theory and facts are mere academic (or scholastic) exercises. You can't use Marx when complaining that factual statements about the BNP are worthless if they are not "critical" ie. they don't go through a ritual of stating opposition to the BNP.

This thread is interesting because of three poster's attitude to political discourse.

RMP3 and MrA need rituals of diplomacy before disagreements can be aired.

They are joined by Black Hand in the need for rituals of opposition to the BNP.

We should understand the religious nature of sectarianism. All these rituals.

Having said that I doubt THB has a sectarian agenda. Unless you count BH as a sect with one member. MrA is probably Catholic (as a guess).
ResistanceMP3;10229992]Are you on a lot of drug's?[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Knotted said:
What's my crazy conduct got to do with anyone else? They're not responsible for me.
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I ask about your drug in take, because your comments seem to bear no relation to reality.

1. Sectarinism?

Beyond saying I believe the BNP to be a fascist, I've barely made a political statement. My comment's about BA etc are personal, not political. In fact my comment's about their politics have mostly been fraternal. This post delineates both point's.
ResistanceMP3 said:
You make him sound very arrogant.

Are you seriously saying UAF, Searchlight, MrA etc have no ideas, or just ideas Napolean etc disagree with? How effective have butchers ideas been? Is it possible butchers is wrong?


And do you and butchers, mk12, VP, Pickmans etc have a link to where anyone has stated butchers is a fascist?

btw. I agree. Butcher's does know a great deal about fascism and has some ideas of how to fight it. What's more they are very simple, and I hope thy work. I have no desire or reason to attack his efforts. I just have a different tactic.
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Note beyond that statement, I don't think I've actualy advocated that tactic.



2. "RMP3 and MrA need rituals of diplomacy"?

I'm not interested BA's drama queen ignorance and arogance, beyond amusement. I've done nothing but agree with facts pointed out by others. I have no "need" for him to be diplomatic, in fact quite the opposite.
 
ViolentPanda said:
That's a question that misses his point, which is that you and MrA, as well as TBH, have shown through your contributions that you favour a particular "method" of anti-fascism that involves conformity to your particularistic "rules of engagement" before you'll contribute to the discourse.
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Your lying again, I think. Links, to where I called butch a fascist, and advocated the UAF tactic in this thread, or apologise.:D
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
I ask about your drug in take, because your comments seem to bear no relation to reality.

1. Sectarinism?

Beyond saying I believe the BNP to be a fascist, I've barely made a political statement. My comment's about BA etc are personal, not political. In fact my comment's about their politics have mostly been fraternal. This post delineates both point's.
Note beyond that statement, I don't think I've actualy advocated that tactic.
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I haven't said you are making any sectarian arguments. I agree, you're not making any arguments at all. Your point seems to be to harange people for not following, as VP puts it, the rules of engagment. You seem to be in a permanent state of culture shock.

ResistanceMP3 said:
2. "RMP3 and MrA need rituals of diplomacy"?

I'm not interested BA's drama queen ignorance and arogance, beyond amusement. I've done nothing but agree with facts pointed out by others. I have no "need" for him to be diplomatic, in fact quite the opposite.
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You obviously don't like BA's conduct. It is interesting that you call him and VP arrogant. This is how religious people view atheists who speak their mind. How dare they state what they think rather than politely confide that they have their doubts in your faith? Arrogance.
 
Knotted said:
I haven't said you are making any sectarian arguments. I agree, you're not making any arguments at all.
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Fair comment. You didn't accuse me of sectarianism, that's VP etc. My opologies. [Sometimes you need a worm on the hook?;) ]

Your right totaly apolitical, which kind of negates vp etc whining and 'lies' about my sectarianism.:)
You obviously don't like BA's conduct. It is interesting that you call him and VP arrogant. This is how religious people view atheists who speak their mind. How dare they state what they think rather than politely confide that they have their doubts in your faith? Arrogance.
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No, no, no, selective/wrongly quoting is what your, wrongly imo, admonishing tbh for. tut tut tut. What I said;

2. "RMP3 and MrA need rituals of diplomacy"?

I'm not interested BA's drama queen ignorance and arogance, beyond amusement. I've done nothing but agree with facts pointed out by others. I have no "need" for him to be diplomatic, in fact quite the opposite.
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So your wrong about MY meaning possibly because;
Your point seems to be to harange people for not following, as VP puts it, the rules of engagment. You seem to be in a permanent state of culture shock.
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Miss again! If anything I've encouraged their tendecies to be sectarian drama queens. No culture shock, the www is full of Napoleans, but not usualy as charactured as the pink 'Nazi'.:D

Lastly, I wouldn't trust how "VP puts it", because so far he apears to be a liar, as well as a CT.
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
Your right totaly apolitical, which kind of negates butcher, vp etc whining lies about my sectarianism.:)
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Seriously - why just make something up? I've not accused you of sectarianism, i've not accused you of anything - i rarely even bother replying to or reading your posts. A quick check of your posting history though reveals a pretty transparent obsession with me though. That's pretty much all you've talked about for a few years.
 
butchersapron said:
Seriously - why just make something up? I've not accused you of sectarianism, i've not accused you of anything - i rarely even bother replying to or reading your posts. A quick check of your posting history though reveals a pretty transparent obsession with me though. That's pretty much all you've talked about for a few years.
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yeh - well rmp3's a man with a great deal to be modest about.
 
butchersapron said:
Seriously - why just make something up? I've not accused you of sectarianism, i've not accused you of anything - i rarely even bother replying to or reading your posts. A quick check of your posting history though reveals a pretty transparent obsession with me though. That's pretty much all you've talked about for a few years.
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you were to quick for me, but i had already taken your name out, before i read this. sos Napolean.


eta
lol, i think you do read. my 1st or second post in thread, and there are others. also, how many other people have mentioned you? this thread is all about butchers now. cue vp, mk12, prick, etc etc etc, to defend their leader.:D
 
Knotted said:
MrA need rituals of diplomacy before disagreements can be aired.
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I can guarantee that you are wrong here, if I know the position of the person/poster with whom I'm engaging it makes it easier to adopt a stance and a suitable response. If I'm not sure I take steps to try to understand their position first.

Knotted said:
Having said that I doubt THB has a sectarian agenda. Unless you count BH as a sect with one member. MrA is probably Catholic (as a guess).
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What makes you say that, just curious.


ViolentPanda said:
That's a question that misses his point, which is that you and MrA, as well as TBH, have shown through your contributions that you favour a particular "method" of anti-fascism that involves conformity to your particularistic "rules of engagement" before you'll contribute to the discourse.
Click to expand...

I can't speak for the others but for myself I would say that I believe that there are several methods of of anti-fascism, however I don't subscribe to them all. As for looking for conformity I would suggest that other forum members would disagree, now I know how the land lies on U75, I'm starting to get a picture of how posters operate. Most of the disagreements on this thread appear to be personal and driven by some historical vendettas.

As for rules of engagement before discourse, I think almost everyone has an agenda some deeper than others, my only agenda is opposition to racism.


Knotted said:
You obviously don't like BA's conduct. It is interesting that you call him and VP arrogant.
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If BA wasn't so abrasive and confrontational *(IMO)*, he's seems OK. I wish I could figure out his position on dealing with the BNP though.

VP is a complete dick. Nuff sed.
 
MrA said:
I can guarantee that you are wrong here, if I know the position of the person/poster with whom I'm engaging it makes it easier to adopt a stance and a suitable response. If I'm not sure I take steps to try to understand their position first.
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If you read butcher's first few posts on this thread you can see he is anti-BNP. To be fair it is a little cryptic - but then he wasn't preaching. It's fairly typical of butchers and several other posters from anarchist backgrounds to present facts and let you make your own mind up. They're not a preachy bunch.

MrA said:
What makes you say that, just curious.
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You seem to have needed to establish a relation with BA on the basis of either he explains to you how you should think or you explain to him how to think or a bit of both. If he contradicts your ideas about what the BNP are, you feel at risk of being disorientated - you're not comfortable working things out for yourself, you need guidance. There is the alternative in your mind where it's actually butchers who needs guidance (perhaps he's a BNP sympathiser). Someone has to guide someone else.

This is a sectish mentality in my opinion. The question in my mind is, "what's your sect?" I don't think it is a political sect - you don't seem particularly political except for your anti-racism. Also bippipitybop and Y I Otter do not share your sectishness so it's not to do with Moot Stormfront. I'm pretty sure it's because you are a religious man.

Judging by your reaction to okgirl, I think if butchers had turned out to be a BNP sympathiser you would have treated him much more warmly. You don't mind so much what people think or what they do - they can be made to see the error of their ways and forgiven. But you mind greatly if someone causes you confusion - perhaps threatening schisms in the church of anti-fascism. You complain bitterly that people on the same side should be abrasive to each other. Doubting dogma is allowed, but only if you treat it with respect. This attitude maps on to Catholicism pretty closely.

MrA said:
Most of the disagreements on this thread appear to be personal and driven by some historical vendettas.
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There hasn't been much in the way of disagreement. This thread stopped being about the BNP after the first page or so. I think it's been a form of therapy for some people. It should be moved to Health & Sexuality.

MrA said:
I wish I could figure out his position on dealing with the BNP though.
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You could try asking him.

MrA said:
VP is a complete dick. Nuff sed.
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VP has shown almost heroic levels of patience throughout this thread. I'm pissed off on his behalf that you've said that.
 
i used to post on msf maaaaaaaaaaaaany years ago. in fact i was one of the founding members of the site and was very good friends with the guy who set it up. I stopped for a number of reasons but one of the main ones was because, among other reasons, of the fact that there were people on that site who were actually colluding and even friendly with fascists and becoming steadily more and more like the people they supposedly opposed and to be honest I didn't see how it could be a constructive place for debate or anything else of the kind when its focus was simply about "ego-wars" between racists and anti fash.


no idea what its like now mind. i stopped posting around 2006 and havent looked at it since. btw, vp and butchers are two of the people i respect the most on here. you certainly wouldn't get me saiyng that if they were fash.
 
"Anti-fascism" on its own is a fairly meaningless concept, that's what butchers and others are trying to get across I think. Have a think about what fascism actually is for a start ...
 
Knotted said:
If you read butcher's first few posts on this thread you can see he is anti-BNP. To be fair it is a little cryptic - but then he wasn't preaching.
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So plain and coherent, some considered he may be a fascist.


You seem to have needed to establish a relation with BA on the basis of either he explains to you how you should think or you explain to him how to think or a bit of both. If he contradicts your ideas about what the BNP are, you feel at risk of being disorientated - you're not comfortable working things out for yourself, you need guidance. There is the alternative in your mind where it's actually butchers who needs guidance (perhaps he's a BNP sympathiser). Someone has to guide someone else.

This is a sectish mentality in my opinion. The question in my mind is, "what's your sect?" I don't think it is a political sect - you don't seem particularly political except for your anti-racism. Also bippipitybop and Y I Otter do not share your sectishness so it's not to do with Moot Stormfront. I'm pretty sure it's because you are a religious man.

Judging by your reaction to okgirl, I think if butchers had turned out to be a BNP sympathiser you would have treated him much more warmly. You don't mind so much what people think or what they do - they can be made to see the error of their ways and forgiven. But you mind greatly if someone causes you confusion - perhaps threatening schisms in the church of anti-fascism. You complain bitterly that people on the same side should be abrasive to each other. Doubting dogma is allowed, but only if you treat it with respect. This attitude maps on to Catholicism pretty closely.
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Interesting definition of sectish mentality. So basically, anybody who doesn't think and operate like an anarchist, is sectarian. rofl, that explains a lot.


There hasn't been much in the way of disagreement. This thread stopped being about the BNP after the first page or so. I think it's been a form of therapy for some people. It should be moved to Health & Sexuality.
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I wouldn't say it has been much therapy for VP, rather just blindly lashing out. Appears to be telling lies and making false accusations, ie sectarianism, and that me and mr a have called butch a fascist.



You could try asking him.
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he could try asking him, but I bet your silence in this thread, butch won't answer. bet?



VP has shown almost heroic levels of patience throughout this thread. I'm pissed off on his behalf that you've said that.
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rofl, think you're displaying a "sectish mentality".
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
So plain and coherent, some considered he may be a fascist...
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That plain and coherent that it acted like some magical screening device separating the sensible from the utter dickheads. So useful in that sense as well - why give weight to the political opinions of people who can't even read the discourse on a messageboard properly, let alone the actual situation in the real world?
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
Interesting definition of sectish mentality. So basically, anybody who doesn't think and operate like an anarchist, is sectarian. rofl, that explains a lot.
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I didn't give a definition. I might define a political sect as an organisation that puts it's own interests before the goals of the broader movement.

For example the SWP wishes to use the BNP to build the UAF, rather than use the UAF to counter the BNP.

Note that sectarianism can be broad church. Sectarians can be the harshest critics of sectarian squabbling - they want to maintain the unity of their organisation at all costs. Most sectarians will talk about "the sects" and how they shouldn't be talked to. If you weren't sectarian you would have nothing to fear in disagreements.

Also note that the political sectarian and the religious sectarian are kindred spirits. They breed similar character types.
 
Knotted said:
I didn't give a definition. I might define a political sect as an organisation that puts it's own interests before the goals of the broader movement.

For example the SWP wishes to use the BNP to build the UAF, rather than use the UAF to counter the BNP.

Note that sectarianism can be broad church. Sectarians can be the harshest critics of sectarian squabbling - they want to maintain the unity of their organisation at all costs. Most sectarians will talk about "the sects" and how they shouldn't be talked to. If you weren't sectarian you would have nothing to fear in disagreements.

Also note that the political sectarian and the religious sectarian are kindred spirits. They breed similar character types.
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Your pretty good at selectively quoting/answering, and then talking bollocks. So you seriously believe "For example the SWP wishes to use the BNP to build the UAF, rather than use the UAF to counter the BNP." to put "it's own interests before the goals of the broader movement." So you seriously believe the that I, the SWP membership, are not just tactical a mistaken, they actually have no desire to counter the neo=fascist's! rofl :D

Dick head!
 
JimW said:
That plain and coherent that it acted like some magical screening device separating the sensible from the utter dickheads. So useful in that sense as well - why give weight to the political opinions of people who can't even read the discourse on a messageboard properly, let alone the actual situation in the real world?
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"it acted like some magical screening device".:D Yup you lot need screening from the stupid proles.
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
Your pretty good at selectively quoting/answering, and then talking bollocks.
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I'm not selectively quoting and I'm certainly not going to reply to all of your disingenuous garbage. I might be talking bollocks though.

ResistanceMP3 said:
So you seriously believe "For example the SWP wishes to use the BNP to build the UAF, rather than use the UAF to counter the BNP." to put "it's own interests before the goals of the broader movement." So you seriously believe the that I, the SWP membership, are not just tactical a mistaken, they actually have no desire to counter the neo=fascist's! rofl :D

Dick head!
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We have to ask what drives them. How does the SWP actually function. Remember we are materialists.

In terms of what you and they believe, I don't think you/they would see any conflict between building the movement and countering "neo-fascism". I'm happy to accept that they believe in what they are doing.

This is a curious thing that seems to be far too generally accepted. Why is it that self-definition should never be questioned? Why is it assumed that because someone thinks they are doing X then it means they are really doing X and it is incorrect to point out that they are actually doing Y? Have you never read Marx on ideology? Little wonder the SWP created an organisation called "RESPECT". They are obsessed with bourgeois respect.
 
Knotted said:
I'm not selectively quoting and I'm certainly not going to reply to all of your disingenuous garbage. I might be talking bollocks though.
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What's disingenuous about it? I haven't been apparently lying, like vp.
In terms of what you and they believe, I don't think you/they would see any conflict between building the movement and countering "neo-fascism". I'm happy to accept that they believe in what they are doing.
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Well done, a better answer than VP, Pick etc conspiracy theory.

This is a curious thing that seems to be far too generally accepted. Why is it that self-definition should never be questioned? Why is it assumed that because someone thinks they are doing X then it means they are really doing X and it is incorrect to point out that they are actually doing Y? Have you never read Marx on ideology? Little wonder the SWP created an organisation called "RESPECT". They are obsessed with bourgeois respect.
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I never said one should assume that because someone thinks they are doing X then it means they are really doing X and it is incorrect to point out that they are actually doing Y!
We have to ask what drives them. How does the SWP actually function. Remember we are materialists.
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Yup! That's what I'd do/did.
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JimW said:
Nope, screening from their self-appointed vanguard spokesmen. Stupid I will grant you though :D
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Mr A?:confused


ETA. You do realise that Mr A. Is not an SW member? This is just some working class guy I assume, interested in anti-fascism, but who butch considered too stupid to be worth talking to, who just wanted a clear delineation of butchers alternative.
ResistanceMP3;10183225]btw. I agree. Butcher's does know a great deal about fascism and has some ideas of how to fight it. What's more they are very simple said:
Sorry m8, it's secret. I could tell you,,,,,,,,, but I'd have to kill you.
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[/QUOTE]


WHY! After 21 pages has nobody been able to put Mr. A out of his misery, and explain 'butchers alternative'?
 
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