ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Oh the inimitable fucking irony of this post!!
BNP leader faces jail!!
- Thread starter MrA
- Start date
Oh the inimitable fucking irony of this post!!
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
y i otter, the BNP are quite frankly in no danger of taking power in the UK, that is the least of our problems. You have a lot of really intelligent stuff to say but to be honest some of your recent posts on the topic demonstrate (to me anyway) that you have a lot to learn about the political situation there.
i don't claim to be an expert but I think that old style goose stepping fascism and the risk of the BNP "gaining power" is the least of the worries when it comes to extreme right wing politics in the UK.
i don't claim to be an expert but I think that old style goose stepping fascism and the risk of the BNP "gaining power" is the least of the worries when it comes to extreme right wing politics in the UK.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
As myself and others (including you, I believe
) have said repeatedly, it's not the BNP gaining power that's what should concern us in the short to middle-term, it's the fact that even a marginally electorally-acceptable BNP not only helps legitimate a hard-right politics constructed around the ytopes about immigration and jobs, but that it allows the mainstream parties to shift their policies rightward if they feel that rightward is where the votes lie. It has happened before, and it can happen again.butchersapron
Bring back hanging
See the QT where Griffin was the most left wing voice on immigration 
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
The problem is that what a lot of the mainstream parties and media come out with these days on the subject of immigration etc not only falls into a convenient discourse which doesn't in any way examine the issues involved in depth, but also is very similar in its way to what the bnp are coming out with. In fact if anything as butchers said some of the positions of the bnp might even be less extreme.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
All of which further serves to appear to legitimate them politically and bring them closer to getting a toe-hold not only in national (rather than local or regional) politics, but in the voting intentions of the so-called "respectable" electorate rather than with their old fringe of deep-fried Hitler-idolising racist misanthropes.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Pure comedy gold, Butch and his manipulators conspiracy theory, and JimW also forwarded a theory, a different one to Butchs. Here is Jims personality issues theory "http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10210194&postcount=615". Both explanations share a similar major and fatal flaw, in that they fail to confront the issue of 'non committal presentation looking like apology'.
Y_I_Otter
Dangerous Terroirist
I don't agree that the old approaches 'have failed/won't work'. A nominal increase in BNP support isn't the only way to measure the efficacy of those approaches. 60 councilors out of a possible many thousands and a couple of MEPs in a few non-representative regions is the result of the party riding a perfect storm of sorts: voter apathy, dislike/distrust of the EU, and the expenses scandals, etc.-- conditions that aren't guaranteed to repeat themselves indefinitely.
So what is the question then? I maintain that keeping the public informed of what kind of people the representatives of the BNP are today-- as contrasted with what they were before the party went all kinder and gentler-- is a valuable contribution and will continue to be.
Y_I_Otter said:
butchersapron said:
the article said:
This is one of the lamest parts of the whole piece, imo. It suggests that the proper approach to a demo by the EDL and their neo-nazi fellow travellers is to avoid counter-protest and let them have at it, with the tacit assumption being that the locals themselves, appalled at the racism and Islamophobia they spout, will 'kick back or ignore' them. I don't think that would be the case at all.
If the protests to which the article is referring are ones like those at the RW&B clusterfucks or outside hotels where the BNP hold conferences, I have to ask: who would it benefit if anti-fascist activists stayed away, apart from the BNP?
Canada, why? Does that disqualify me from having an opinion on the matter or expressing it here?
The Black Hand
Unclean
A) That's not true, I am involved in many things, the overwhelming majority of which I cannot control. Whatever makes you think I'm seeking control, that is stupid, I would have simplistically jumped on Larrys and the IWCA bandwagon like a few round here if I wanted ultra left anti fascist 'influence' (whatever that is). No, I seek something bigger, something completely uncontrollable and radical - nothing like the ultra left anti fascists around here
My fault is sticking it to the irrelevant who 'don't like it up 'em'.B) Do give over. That's just ignorant and stupid thinking. Anti fascist arguments are not about anti fascism? Of course they are, to the exclusion of all else. And this is where your theory falls, if they weren't the arguments would not make sense. I have contructed a different autonomous anti fascist position to the ultra left shite, why should I give up these positions? Tell me that Panda.
I have explained why and what ultra left anti fascism is elsewhere anyway - that tells me you haven't read it.
There is nothing to be gained by disagreements on the anti fascist scene. Your analysis falls flat on the floor because neither immortality nor power can be gained on U75, thats wierd.
Y_I_Otter
Dangerous Terroirist
That's why I'm here.
I don't believe for a minute that the BNP are in any danger of forming a government; far from it. But as you yourself say, its biggest threat is driving the political pendulum from right to righter.
Agreed, but keeping them on the outer fringes of political respectability is still something worth pursuing, I think.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Hang on -'nominal' - have you no history?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That part was nothing to with the EDL. It was written before the approach that you support had puffed the EDL up into something.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Of course not - it does though make you reliant on media interpretations and official anti-facsist news. Which is why you parrot searchlight.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Seriously, what madness is this?
Y_I_Otter
Dangerous Terroirist
Are you suggesting that the emergence of the EDL as a racist force to be reckoned with is primarily the result of Searchlight/UAF making the public better aware of its existence and who its main players are?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yes i am.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Y_I_Otter
Dangerous Terroirist
I'm saying that the BNP support, such as it is, is largely in name only. I'd suggest that a great many of the votes they got in the EU parliamentary elections were protest votes whose intention it was to send a message to the major parties.
I don't believe they'll do very well in the general election; not nearly as well as they think they will, certainly. It's debatable whether they can even raise sufficient funds to run a proper campaign.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
How often does it take to become a real vote? Because there was 5 years between the 04 and the 09 elections. (800 000 votes vs 950 000) They sort of did stuff inbetween that got the elected and put their agenda on the national medias. When does it become real?
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
You can't help yourself can you? Stop scratching this stupid itch. You made a lazy and insulting post in the middle of losing an argument very bacly, and now you're trying to backtrack whilst also maintaining that it was a perfectly reasonable thing to post.
Perhaps, just perhaps, you could have stopped to consider whether or not someone whose board name is butchersapron would be likely to be a member of the BNP.
Y_I_Otter
Dangerous Terroirist
If they crack the FPTP barrier by electing representatives to parliament, that would be a sign of 'realness'. If they were to grab a few hundred council seats and manage to hang onto them to the degree that they actually control some of those councils would be another. I'm not seeing anything like that on the horizon.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
I am not surprised a lurking troll (in another post) should quote Stormfront about me, but the above is eloquent confirmation indeed about how the internet, and this forum, isn't the place to debate ideological nuances/anything of subtlety.
Simply put, the above is not just a misrepresentation of my research on the BNP, but a lie, complete with the apparatus of the weasel, faux quotation marks about an 'all powerful BNP'.
Usefully, however, that the poster should lie so blatantly about my research performs three useful functions
1) It shows his claims to be non-sectarian and putting across a 'new paradigm' are bogus. The 'Stalin School of Falsification' is clearly where he learnt this kind of technique.
2) It indicates, being charitable, he has either not read my research, or is not actually capable of doing so. This, despite adding a couple of references to my research in the bibliography of his supposed 'New approach to anti-fascism. Either interpretation (laziness or incapacity) rules him out of participation in any reasoned debate on anti-fascist politics.
3) It illustrates that Bark does not even know the meaning of a word like 'critique'.
The only point to debating with outright liars is if there is a third party audience who might appreciate or learn from it. This forum, as the abuse and gross misrepresentation of Butchers Apron & Violent Panda by others on this thread shows, is not it. Ironically (or perhaps not) I do have some disagreements with Butchers Apron's perspective in some regards--but this arena heavily populated by trolls/liars like 'The Black Hand' is patently not the place to articulate them.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
such as?
The Black Hand
Unclean
Poor old Saint Larry. I have read your work, not all of it, but enough to gauge its approach.
I paraphrased what you do with the '_' question marks, that is a recognised form of academic paraphrasing (condensing what people say). IT is NOT and was never meant to be a direct quotation, and I usually provide LOADS of references as others on U75 have pointed out. SO WHO IS THE LIAR NOW LARRY? You are.
Are you a Doctor? If so, you should know that.
As for being lazy or incapacitated, I've done the reasearch. read widely, and those are my conclusions. You are another of the precious sort who thinks 'my way or the highway', thank the lord that the world is a bigger place and there are plenty of people out there who can come to their own conclusions rather than reading your approach and what you say and taking it as gospel. The ideological heritage of which I am not sure about, you are another one 'I don't get'. Unlike you, the autonomous tradition in Marxist theory is clear in its heritage and thinking.
The Black Hand
Unclean
It is impossible to 'take over' "Capital and Class".
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
You "usually provide loads of references"--I took you to task because you provided none, no proof at all, then have the cheek to call me a liar. I am not interested in "usually" but a specific evidence free lie about my research that I believe in an 'all powerful BNP'--which you have provided no evidence for, either when you uttered it, or now. You are not condensing what I say--you are lying about it. This is not acceptable in a saloon bar, never mind academic circles. If you dont know the difference between truth and lies, no point in engaging with you further--but you haver eloquently shown just why reasoned debate is not possible on this forum.
I can barely remember any primary sources on fascist strategy you quote, certainly nowhere near the number I do. Therefore the evidence base for your conclusions is lacking. And by the way, to quote is not to uncritically accept--but then, you don't know what critique means, do you?.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Yet more Comedy from Saint Larry. Proof, you want proof. Proof that your work is used by the BNP because it is so uncritical that it is safe for them to use. Proof that non committal description, and in places uncritical replication of their lines of argument (theoretical assumptions) and propaganda can lead others to think that you are an apologist for them? Those sort of lines of arguements have already been made on this thread by others, independent and unaligned people who have come to those conclusions by reading what you and Butchers write (regardless of whether you 100% agree with him or not.)
Saying that the BNP are effective, which you and butchers do ad nauseum, can lead to the impression that you (whoever writes tlike that) are an apologist for them. That is the 'all powerful BNP', a concept that is descriptive of that approach. it is NOT a theoretical assesment of your work and was never meant to be, is that clearer for you Larry. YOU and others, look for demons where none exist, deep immersion in a 'smoke and daggers' environment sees enemies, liars, charletans, and fraudsters everywhere. You, and not only you, do that and are doing that now. That is not to say that there are not those who are 'out to get you', but it is not me.
You are completely uncritical in your approach to your own writing and presentation. My Precious
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Yet more Comedy from Saint Larry. Proof, you want proof. Proof that your work is used by the BNP because it is so uncritical that it is safe for them to use. Proof that non committal description, and in places uncritical replication of their lines of argument (theoretical assumptions) and propaganda can lead others to think that you are an apologist for them? Those sort of lines of arguements have already been made on this thread by others, independent and unaligned people who have come to those conclusions by reading what you and Butchers write (regardless of whether you 100% agree with him or not.)
Saying that the BNP are effective, which you and butchers do ad nauseum, can lead to the impression that you (whoever writes tlike that) are an apologist for them. That is the 'all powerful BNP', a concept that is descriptive of that approach. it is NOT a theoretical assesment of your work and was never meant to be, is that clearer for you Larry. YOU and others, look for demons where none exist, deep immersion in a 'smoke and daggers' environment sees enemies, liars, charletans, and fraudsters everywhere. You, and not only you, do that and are doing that now. That is not to say that there are not those who are 'out to get you', but it is not me.
You are completely uncritical in your approach to your own writing and presentation. My Precious
You not only (again) give no evidence when I have caught you out in a lie, you then add abuse to it. Nowhere have I ever stated, or implied, the BNP is "all powerful". That is a ludicrous, slanderous, lie.
I would say, however, that having 2 MEPs and more councillors (by far) than all previous British fascist groups put together implies a certain degree of effectiveness on the BNP's part. I do not see liars everywhere--I do note, for a final time, you have fraudulently misrepresented me as saying/implying the BNP are "all pwerful". If you consider my objecting to you lying about my research is being 'precious'. then I plead guilty to that charge. As I have taken you to task three times now and you are patently not going to provide proof my research portrays the BNP as 'all powerful', then I'm off.
I should as a conclusion, mention for the benefit of those who may have been misled by your misrepresentation, that the latest 12 page article I have written in Notes From the Borderland http://www.borderland.co.uk/preview_002.htmon the '2009 BNP Election Success & Anti-Fascist Strategy' devotes 2 pages to analysing BNP strategy (i.e. why they actually won 2 MEP seats) but 6 to analysing anti-fascist strategy (Hope Not Hate/UAF) including a schematic alternative. But, that's all a bit empirical isn't it--so I really will stop
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I don't think that anti-fascist protests are a bad thing, I think it's necessary for fascism to be opposed, but there needs to be an alternative put in its place, otherwise it is mildly effective with some people at best and downright counterproductive at worst.
Protests are only useful in as far as they are good for networking, bringing public attention to the issue (and it's not like people don't know/havent heard of the bnp and their "alleged" racism) and demonstrating that there is public opposition to something. Counter protest by all means but at the moment one of the problms is that UAF is TOO inclusive in terms of including lib dems, tories, labour etc who all from time to time come out with the exact same stuff, and also there is no class based (or anything else) politics, it's all focused on sayng the BNP are bad waa waa waa and not attacking the issues that lead people to vote for them
Protests are only useful in as far as they are good for networking, bringing public attention to the issue (and it's not like people don't know/havent heard of the bnp and their "alleged" racism) and demonstrating that there is public opposition to something. Counter protest by all means but at the moment one of the problms is that UAF is TOO inclusive in terms of including lib dems, tories, labour etc who all from time to time come out with the exact same stuff, and also there is no class based (or anything else) politics, it's all focused on sayng the BNP are bad waa waa waa and not attacking the issues that lead people to vote for them
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