BNP leader faces jail!!

[frogwoman]

Saying that the BNP are effective, which you and butchers do ad nauseum, can lead to the impression that you (whoever writes tlike that) are an apologist for them.

Does this work for other issues, like say the war in iraq, would pointing how effective tony blair was in leading the public into war count as being an apologist for him?

 

[The Black Hand]

You not only (again) give no evidence when I have caught you out in a lie, you then add abuse to it. Nowhere have I ever stated, or implied, the BNP is "all powerful". That is a ludicrous, slanderous, lie.

I would say, however, that having 2 MEPs and more councillors (by far) than all previous British fascist groups put together implies a certain degree of effectiveness on the BNP's part. I do not see liars everywhere--I do note, for a final time, you have fraudulently misrepresented me as saying/implying the BNP are "all pwerful". If you consider my objecting to you lying about my research is being 'precious'. then I plead guilty to that charge. As I have taken you to task three times now and you are patently not going to provide proof my research portrays the BNP as 'all powerful', then I'm off.

Abuse? You have a lower standard of definition of the term abuse than the police, and that is going some.

Goodbyeee goodbyeeeee wipe the tear from the eye etc.

I haven't lied Larry, that is your projection. you have just not paid any attention to or understood what I wrote. Here it is again so you can try to understand it this time "Saying that the BNP are effective, which you and butchers do ad nauseum, can lead to the impression that you (whoever writes tlike that) are an apologist for them. That is the 'all powerful BNP', a concept that is descriptive of that approach. it is NOT a theoretical assesment of your work and was never meant to be".

Have you got that yet?

It is NOT saying that is in your work (that is for others to decide and come to their own conclusion), I CLEARLY said it is 'an impression', a concept that gains force when non committal description of the BNP is repeatedly written (you know where that is in your own work Larry).

It is not a lie. you can object all you want Saint Larry, but we all know that you and others are so very precious which is so patently obvious I think to any independently minded person.

 

[The Black Hand]

Does this work for other issues, like say the war in iraq, would pointing how effective tony blair was in leading the public into war count as being an apologist for him?

Yes I think it does. Appearances do count.

 

[The Black Hand]

I should as a conclusion, mention for the benefit of those who may have been misled by your misrepresentation, that the latest 12 page article I have written in Notes From the Borderland http://www.borderland.co.uk/preview_002.htmon the '2009 BNP Election Success & Anti-Fascist Strategy' devotes 2 pages to analysing BNP strategy (i.e. why they actually won 2 MEP seats) but 6 to analysing anti-fascist strategy (Hope Not Hate/UAF) including a schematic alternative. But, that's all a bit empirical isn't it--so I really will stop

Crikey Larry, I may just have to read this I must confess to not having done so, so far. I'll post you my mags to swop

You may feel that I have misrepresented you, but I never attempted to represent you. It was a description and no more, you are projecting too much onto it i think.

 

[Knotted]

The word you're looking for is "characterisation", BH. You are entitled to your opinion of Larry's work, regardless of how idiotic your opinion may be.

 

[JimW]

Yes I think it does. Appearances do count.

This is both patronising and counter-productive - my experience is people are far more persuaded by a solid analysis that isn't obviously just partisan, because we trust our own judgement, but are more likely to dismiss something that's obviously grinding an axe. Unless you think everyone's a fascist/racist at heart unless browbeaten.

 

[The Black Hand]

This is both patronising and counter-productive - my experience is people are far more persuaded by a solid analysis that isn't obviously just partisan, because we trust our own judgement, but are more likely to dismiss something that's obviously grinding an axe. Unless you think everyone's a fascist/racist at heart unless browbeaten.

Sure, for some people. I agree, people are put off by 'Life of Brian' politico's, I certainly wasn't advocating those old left forms.

 

[The Black Hand]

I can barely remember any primary sources on fascist strategy you quote, certainly nowhere near the number I do. Therefore the evidence base for your conclusions is lacking. And by the way, to quote is not to uncritically accept--but then, you don't know what critique means, do you?.

To add, that I didn't write a piece on fascist strategy, I wrote about Autonomous Anti Fascism, and elections. Unlike you, I am more than an Anti fascist 1 trick pony, I do not spend my time on anti fascism alone. The evidence base for my conclusions are large and born out of the history of class struggle, and especially the British Marxist Historians, especially E.P. Thompson (you can read the Popular Front Anti Fascism in Mayday 4 that I will post you), and various other critical Marxist thinkers/thinking.

As I said, I am sure about the British working class tradition that these ideas have developed in, yours I am not sure about. You have your priorities, but I do not understand the 'why' part, and their relationship with anarchist and/or Marxist thinking, the framework so to speak. Is that in your unpublished PhD?

 

[Pickman's model]

Is that in your unpublished PhD?

perhaps you should try using ethos. but then you wouldn't know what that was.

 

[TremulousTetra]

To add, that I didn't write a piece on fascist strategy, I wrote about Autonomous Anti Fascism, and elections. Unlike you, I am more than an Anti fascist 1 trick pony, I do not spend my time on anti fascism alone. The evidence base for my conclusions are large and born out of the history of class struggle, and especially the British Marxist Historians, especially E.P. Thompson (you can read the Popular Front Anti Fascism in Mayday 4 that I will post you), and various other critical Marxist thinkers/thinking.

As I said, I am sure about the British working class tradition that these ideas have developed in, yours I am not sure about. You have your priorities, but I do not understand the 'why' part, and their relationship with anarchist and/or Marxist thinking, the framework so to speak. Is that in your unpublished PhD?

Come on now, stop manipulating Mr. A..... rofl

 

[Pickman's model]

It is impossible to 'take over' "Capital and Class".

that's an example of the 'many things you are involved in'?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Oh the inimitable fucking irony of this post!!

the old 'irony' bulletin board trick. lol

PS. Am sure Butch appreciates your sycophancy, but kindly take your tongue out of his arse, its not becoming in public.

 

[TremulousTetra]

From the exchanges I've read between you and TBH which have been, amusing, informative and civil, in the main, so I can't see why any differences can't be overcome, you're both on the same side of the river so to speak, but crossing on different bridges.

As far as vp, butch, pick etc is concerned, that aint never goin to appen. They can't believe that the rest of the left are genuinely pulling in the same direction, (always having conspiracy theories about nefarious aim's/objectives.)

As I've said repeatedly in this thread, when I've been "manipulating you" rofl, just leave them to it mate.

 

[Pickman's model]

Anyway, I've apologised enough and it isn't good enough. Your problem not mine.

all i've wanted is for you to show where i said that the bnp constitution and manifesto don't have a racist and fascist agenda, and if you can't for you to do what you said you'd do, which is leave. as for apologies, i'll have one if you're offering them about.

 

[ViolentPanda]

A) That's not true, I am involved in many things, the overwhelming majority of which I cannot control. Whatever makes you think I'm seeking control, that is stupid...

And yet it's your modus operandi. The joining, the engagement, and then the inevitable strop when people refuse to see that The Black Hand way is best.

I would have simplistically jumped on Larrys,,

Larry doesn't have a bandwagon. He's far too abrasive for that!

and the IWCA bandwagon...

It's hardly a bandwagon, and it's about as "ultra-left" as a pair of sweaty socks.

like a few round here if I wanted ultra left anti fascist 'influence' (whatever that is).

It appears to be, given your use of the phrase "ultra-left" in so many diverse contexts, whatever you deem it to mean at any particular point of discourse.

No, I seek something bigger, something completely uncontrollable and radical -

So you keep saying, but rhetoric and practice often differ, don't they?

nothing like the ultra left anti fascists around here My fault is sticking it to the irrelevant who 'don't like it up 'em'.

"The irrelevant" usually tend to be synonymous with "anyone who disagrees with TBH", don't they?

B) Do give over. That's just ignorant and stupid thinking. Anti fascist arguments are not about anti fascism? Of course they are, to the exclusion of all else.

It's ignorant and stupid to think that arguments about anti-fascism exclude any other consideration.

And this is where your theory falls, if they weren't the arguments would not make sense. I have contructed a different autonomous anti fascist position to the ultra left shite, why should I give up these positions? Tell me that Panda.

Who's asking you to give them up? Not me!

I have explained why and what ultra left anti fascism is elsewhere anyway - that tells me you haven't read it.

Actually, what it should tell anyone who can think rationally is that I disagree with you.

There is nothing to be gained by disagreements on the anti fascist scene.

If, by your simplistic "analysis", there's "nothing to be gained", then there can be nothing to be lost, either, and yet we know that's not true: There are, quite literally (and sadly) careers to be lost and gained from the maintenance or disturbance of the status quo.

Your analysis falls flat on the floor because neither immortality nor power can be gained on U75, thats wierd.

Who's talking about Urban 75 being the limit of your engagement? Of course it's not. Urban 75 is only another piece in the jigsaw of your moves hither, thither and yon in your attempt to find converts.

 

[TremulousTetra]

all i've wanted is for you to show where i said that the bnp constitution and manifesto don't have a racist and fascist agenda, and if you can't for you to do what you said you'd do, which is leave. as for apologies, i'll have one if you're offering them about.

which items would you suggest highlight their racist and fascist agenda?

 

[ViolentPanda]

such as?

Onanism and beer-drinking, for example.

 

[Pickman's model]

which items would you suggest highlight their racist and fascist agenda?

their constitution and manifesto.

 

[ViolentPanda]

the old 'irony' bulletin board trick. lol

Well no, it's not a "trick" when the weight of irony is plain for even an idiot (present company excluded) to see.

PS. Am sure Butch appreciates your sycophancy, but kindly take your tongue out of his arse, its not becoming in public.

Oh, well done! A cogent rebuttal of the irony inherent to your reply to BA!

It's all you've got, isn't it? A well-rehearsed set of smears to deploy against the gainsayers. It says all that need be said.

 

[ViolentPanda]

As far as vp, butch, pick etc is concerned, that aint never goin to appen. They can't believe that the rest of the left are genuinely pulling in the same direction, (always having conspiracy theories about nefarious aim's/objectives.)

It's not about "the rest of the left".
It's about how a single element of the left, mostly going against the direction a majority of the left groupings have taken, attempt to convince that they speak for "the left", and how they have a history of trashing attempts at a cohesive "popular" or even "united" front of "the left".

It might also be about how you, rather than debating the politics or the characters and actions of the political actors, take points in a person's post out of their original context and then attempt to use those words cross-thread as a bludgeon of insinuation.
This is why you have refused to point out to Pickman's Model the thread from which you draw your "conspiracy theory" allegations. You're worried that anyone who can be arsed to read the whole thing will realise what you've done and have a revelation of what a partisan cock you are.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Well no, it's not a "trick" when the weight of irony is plain for even an idiot (present company excluded) to see.

It's all you've got, isn't it? A well-rehearsed set of smears to deploy against the gainsayers. It says all that need be said.

Call me an idiot, and then deplore smear's. rofl

Oh, well done! A cogent rebuttal of the irony inherent to your reply to BA!

So illuminate the irony for the 'idiot'.

 

[TremulousTetra]

It's not about "the rest of the left".
It's about how a single element of the left, mostly going against the direction a majority of the left groupings have taken, attempt to convince that they speak for "the left", and how they have a history of trashing attempts at a cohesive "popular" or even "united" front of "the left".

It might also be about how you, rather than debating the politics or the characters and actions of the political actors, take points in a person's post out of their original context and then attempt to use those words cross-thread as a bludgeon of insinuation.
This is why you have refused to point out to Pickman's Model the thread from which you draw your "conspiracy theory" allegations. You're worried that anyone who can be arsed to read the whole thing will realise what you've done and have a revelation of what a partisan cock you are.

Worried? Worried about what? It's a bloody bulletin board. What's more A bulletin board that I barely post on.

As well documented in their obsession with SW on here, SW advise members not to get involved in such 'sect' boards. Becoming retired from activity in SW several years ago, I ignored the advice out of the curiosity about what made the 'sects' tick. IN MY OPINION I wasted too much time, as they are sects. So lets me make this very clear, I am no longer attempting to debate you butch etc. No longer have any interest in doing so, as I have made clear to Mr. A several times in this thread.

Next, I rarely ever did respond to Pick, because his bulletin board persona is more ludicrously caricature than Butcher's, and believe me that takes some doing. If these two people talk the way they do on this bulletin board in real life, I would be flabbergasted if they didn't constantly walk around with black eyes or were locked up.

Next, if you wish to drag out old threads, do so. I honestly don't care. As far as I'm concerned, what you and several other people said about SW/CC was ludicrous conspiracy theory. That's my honest opinion. And it wasn't just those threads, the conspiracy theorist tendencies seap through in many threads. I realise my pointing this has offended you, and I think I did apologise at the time for that, because the rest of the time, when you're not upset, you are one of the best posters on here.

I will say one thing about the topic of thread. I have no problems whatsoever with the approach you an Butch have to opposing fascism. I seriously and genuinely wish it every success. I am just not convinced, because of the lack of evidence, that it is thre only approach that can be taken, and that people should to "give up anti-fascism".

 

[Pickman's model]

As far as I'm concerned, what you and several other people said about SW/CC was ludicrous conspiracy theory.

link or stfu

 

[TremulousTetra]

their constitution and manifesto.

which items in the bnp constitution and manifesto would you suggest highlight their racist and fascist agenda?

 

[Pickman's model]

which items would you suggest highlight their racist and fascist agenda?

the two items i mentioned.

now about that conspiracy bit, either put up a link or fuck off back under your pile of unsold social workers.

 

[TremulousTetra]

the two items i mentioned.

sorry, edited to say, which items in the bnp constitution and manifesto would you suggest highlight their racist and fascist agenda?

now about that conspiracy bit, either put up a link or fuck off back under your pile of unsold social workers.

as i said not interested, but vp has kept note it appears

It might also be about how you, rather than debating the politics or the characters and actions of the political actors, take points in a person's post out of their original context and then attempt to use those words cross-thread as a bludgeon of insinuation.
This is why you have refused to point out to Pickman's Model the thread from which you draw your "conspiracy theory" allegations. You're worried that anyone who can be arsed to read the whole thing will realise what you've done and have a revelation of what a partisan cock you are.

so ask him.

 

[TremulousTetra]

delete

 

[audiotech]

flounced?

 

[Pickman's model]

sorry, edited to say, which items in the bnp constitution and manifesto would you suggest highlight their racist and fascist agenda? as i said not interested, but vp has kept note it appearsso ask him.

you brought it up, let's see you produce something to substantiate your claim.

when you've done that, perhaps i might consider answering your question.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Call me an idiot, and then deplore smear's. rofl

A smear is an undeserved attack on the character of a poster. Calling you an idiot is merely a statement of fact, especially when prefaced with the word "useful".

So illuminate the irony for the 'idiot'.

The irony lies in someone who spends a lot of their time attempting to put across a partisan POV, to the exclusion of meaningful debate, calling someone else a "control freek" [sic]

Even an idiot should be able to see that.