BNP leader faces jail!!

[Pickman's model]

Don't pretend you've forgot!

i'll take that as an admission you can't.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Sectarianism is bigotry, discrimination or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between subdivisions within a group, such as between different denominations of a religion or the factions of a political movement. < fit's u75 anarchist's to a tee.

It might if anarchists were part of a unified "political movement", but we're not. Something you've been told over and over and over again, but which you appear unable to grasp.
Anarchists (and autonomists and left/social libertarians) are part of a broad philosophical spectrum, not adherents to the same creed or interpretations of a creed.

 

[The Black Hand]

It might if anarchists were part of a unified "political movement", but we're not. Something you've been told over and over and over again, but which you appear unable to grasp.
Anarchists (and autonomists and left/social libertarians) are part of a broad philosophical spectrum, not adherents to the same creed or interpretations of a creed.

I think there is enough evidence to say that the different class struggle anarchist groups, and other associated ultra left groups, piss into the same pot. It is a political movement of a sort (that is not to say it is any good).

The bitching and emnities are huge (mainly/especially emanating from/in London), the political practice/nous is lacking, and the open political practice has been totally lacking though it is extremely slowly improving (but not on or by people on U75).

 

[Knotted]

It might if anarchists were part of a unified "political movement", but we're not. Something you've been told over and over and over again, but which you appear unable to grasp.
Anarchists (and autonomists and left/social libertarians) are part of a broad philosophical spectrum, not adherents to the same creed or interpretations of a creed.

You've given his definition more substance than it has. It is extraordinary but nevertheless true that RMP3 has not associated sectarianism with any creed or interpretation of creed. He has not even defined it as factionalism. He is so astonishingly politically backward, that he actually thinks it is a form of hatred. As it happens it is perfectly coherent (if mistaken) to think that anarchism is a hateful but broad philosophical spectrum.

Your crime is to not make your political beliefs compatable with the most insipid liberalism - you might appear to be hateful to the most moronic liberals. The horror. This is a big crime for RMP3 and BlackHand - just think of all the cherished beliefs they've had to abandon in the name of expediency. You won't even abandon facts of the matter you know to be true. You haven't abandoned anything, you swine!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think there is enough evidence to say that the different class struggle anarchist groups, and other associated ultra left groups, piss into the same pot.

Enough evidence to satisfy whom. Forgive me for being abrupt, but you're hardly a neutral on this pint, are you, given your numerous fallings-out with so very many "anarchist groups"?

It is a political movement of a sort (that is not to say it is any good).

"Of a sort" could mean anything or nothing (probably the latter).

The bitching and emnities are huge (mainly/especially emanating from/in London)...

I beg to differ. The main enmity is against you.

...the political practice/nous is lacking, and the open political practice has been totally lacking though it is extremely slowly improving (but not on or by people on U75).

The problem with this analysis being that you have such a hard-on for your own ideas that you write off a lot of people because they disagree with you. One only has to look at the contretemps your various identities on Urban have engaged in over the years to see that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You've given his definition more substance than it has. It is extraordinary but nevertheless true that RMP3 has not associated sectarianism with any creed or interpretation of creed. He has not even defined it as factionalism. He is so astonishingly politically backward, that he actually thinks it is a form of hatred. As it happens it is perfectly coherent (if mistaken) to think that anarchism is a hateful but broad philosophical spectrum.

Your crime is to not make your political beliefs compatable with the most insipid liberalism -

Try as I might, I can't understand why anyone would want to. Politics is about getting things done, not about being an anodyne.

...you might appear to be hateful to the most moronic liberals.

I certainly hope so.

The horror. This is a big crime for RMP3 and BlackHand - just think of all the cherished beliefs they've had to abandon in the name of expediency. You won't even abandon facts of the matter you know to be true. You haven't abandoned anything, you swine!

I can't bring myself to. Expediency is the enemy of any politics worthy of the name, not just of working-class politics. If not selling out makes me enemies, so what? They can join the queue to piss on my grave when I'm gone!

 

[MrA]

Typing error

A good thread, there seems to be a common theme regarding Butcher and PM, what is their problem?

Sorry VP meant to type PM. I actually find your exchanges with TBH informative.

My problem is with people who can't be arsed to look beyond the obvious when it comes to anti-fascism. I'm not impressed by rmp3's posting up of "resources" that turn out to be a series of links to stories and videos rather than hard data or hard analysis.

Maybe he isn't attempting to impress, does it really take hard data and analysis? How many ordinary folk with only a passing interest in the BNP will be influenced by this approach?

The BNP have made their gains by playing to peoples fears, portraying themselves as pro British as opposed to pro white and championing causes and issues of the working class. The BNP aren't trying to intellectualise their approach, that would just turn people off, but it seems that elements of the left don't have a consolidated approach. If Butchers and PM are indicative of the left then people like me are going to be put off by them.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

If nothing else, this thread had brought home to me the fact that elements of the left are every bit as fractious and prone to petty internecine squabbles over ideological purity as the various elements of the right.

 

[DotCommunist]

If nothing else, this thread had brought home to me the fact that elements of the left are every bit as fractious and prone to petty internecine squabbles over ideological purity as the various elements of the right.

This is news? That life of Brian parody was not based on nothing

 

[MrA]

If nothing else, this thread had brought home to me the fact that elements of the left are every bit as fractious and prone to petty internecine squabbles over ideological purity as the various elements of the right.

No they're not....

 

[butchersapron]

If nothing else, this thread had brought home to me the fact that elements of the left are every bit as fractious and prone to petty internecine squabbles over ideological purity as the various elements of the right.

Why? There's been no discussion of the lefts varied positions on the BNP. There's just been post after post of whining/hobby horsing/piggy backing etc

Serious attempts to look at the BNP were drowned by the above.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

No they're not....

They fucking are, because I say so. Now prove they're not, or belt up!

 

[MrA]

Why? There's been no discussion of the lefts varied positions on the BNP. There's just been post after post of whining/hobby horsing/piggy backing etc

Serious attempts to look at the BNP were drowned by the above.

And you didn't play your part? Let he who is without sin yaddah yaddah yaddah......

 

[butchersapron]

They fucking are, because I say so. Now prove they're not, or belt up!

And we have another scarecrow. It's bizarre. Have you been so warped by your cosy own bnoard that other people talking about the BNP are seen as an affront to you? That disagreeing with your positions and telling you so are wrong in themselves and acts of rebellion?

 

[MrA]

They fucking are, because I say so. Now prove they're not, or belt up!

I won't prove what I have already proved, without proof, earlier. Because you say so, has no bearing on the facts presented previously. So no.. YOU shut up,

See you on MSF?

 

[butchersapron]

And you didn't play your part? Let he who is without sin yaddah yaddah yaddah......

No i didn't. And nor did i keep whining day after day about it.

 

[MrA]

And we have another scarecrow. It's bizarre. Have you been so warped by your cosy own bnoard that other people talking about the BNP are seen as an affront to you? That disagreeing with your positions and telling you so are wrong in themselves and acts of rebellion?

He was joking ffs...

 

[MrA]

No i didn't. And nor did i keep whining day after day about it.

Well it must be tough being so high and mighty eh? Are you restricted to internet forums or do you actually do anything proactive? In fact don't answer.

 

[newbie]

If nothing else, this thread had brought home to me the fact that elements of the left are every bit as fractious and prone to petty internecine squabbles over ideological purity as the various elements of the right.

ideological whatnow? you're kidding, of course. The new kid has had his nose put out of joint and keeps squawking so no-one forgets, and everybody else is playing the same part they've been honing to perfection for 5 years or more.

 

[butchersapron]

They're honed for a reason though to be fair. (And i have just left this alone since the day after the original blow up - it's ridiculous)

 

[Y_I_Otter]

And we have another scarecrow. It's bizarre. Have you been so warped by your cosy own bnoard that other people talking about the BNP are seen as an affront to you? That disagreeing with your positions and telling you so are wrong in themselves and acts of rebellion?

No, I just don't see why differing approaches to tackling a problem need to be in opposition, necessarily.

 

[The Black Hand]

He was joking ffs...

Indeed, so deep in the mire that he can't come up for air.

 

[butchersapron]

No, I just don't see why differing approaches to tackling a problem need to be in opposition, necessarily.

And where have these differing approaches even been discussed on this thread? They haven't been. It never once went near that discussion.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

And where have these differing approaches even been discussed on this thread? They haven't been. It never once went near that discussion.

Maybe that's where the discussion ought to go then, because all I'm seeing is people with a common enemy jousting with one another over, well, nothing really.

In a nutshell, what are the major shortcomings of current anti-fascist efforts and what should they be replaced with?

 

[The Black Hand]

Your crime is to not make your political beliefs compatable with the most insipid liberalism - you might appear to be hateful to the most moronic liberals. The horror. This is a big crime for RMP3 and BlackHand - just think of all the cherished beliefs they've had to abandon in the name of expediency. You won't even abandon facts of the matter you know to be true. You haven't abandoned anything, you swine!

Bullshit backslapping is pathetic. I and probably we have abandoned nothing, we just don't fall for simplistic ultra left shite.

Butch has done nothing intellectually challenging, virtually jack shit. As I said, repeating what the BNP say ad infinitum is not useful.

All there is pathetic and second hand, derived shite about 'how good the bnp are and how well they are doing'. There is nothing radical, new or original in the formulation.

 

[butchersapron]

Maybe that's where the discussion ought to go then, because all I'm seeing is people with a common enemy jousting with one another over, well, nothing really.

In a nutshell, what are the major shortcomings of current anti-fascist efforts and what should they be replaced with?

You mean something like this

 

[Pickman's model]

You mean something like this

you couldn't put the argument in that article in words of one syllable for MrA and his little echo?

 

[Knotted]

Bullshit backslapping is pathetic. I and probably we have abandoned nothing, we just don't fall for simplistic ultra left shite.

Don't tell me, ultra leftism is a form of hatred?

I mean come on. Doesn't RMP3's formulation make you want to vomit? Violently.

Butch has done nothing intellectually challenging, virtually jack shit. As I said, repeating what the BNP say ad infinitum is not useful.

All there is pathetic and second hand, derived shite about 'how good the bnp are and how well they are doing'. There is nothing radical, new or original in the formulation.

This says so much about you and what motivates you. I'm not going to be paying you much attention, I'm afraid, even if you are very intellectually challenging.

 

[Knotted]

If you're really not giving up any cherished beliefs, then why do you keep going on and on about ultra leftism and purity? And in the most random fashion. You're clearly not trying to convince anybody of anything because you don't make any sense. You're trying to convince yourself.

 

[The Black Hand]

A) Enough evidence to satisfy whom. Forgive me for being abrupt, but you're hardly a neutral on this pint, are you, given your numerous fallings-out with so very many "anarchist groups"?

B) "Of a sort" could mean anything or nothing (probably the latter).

C) I beg to differ. The main enmity is against you.

D) The problem with this analysis being that you have such a hard-on for your own ideas that you write off a lot of people because they disagree with you. One only has to look at the contretemps your various identities on Urban have engaged in over the years to see that.

A) Neutral? I didn't realise it mattered, I was passing comment on the scene. Have you never been to the Anarchist Bookfair and associated socials? There certainly is evidence there. I would be flattered if the Anarchist groups took the threat from me so seriously that they had a position upon me I do not think that is true VP.

B) I qualified that statement with a comment on its ability.

C) If I am really the Anti hero of the anarchist movement for doing so little then it can only be symptomatic of this major flaw - that what there is, is pathetic, that they do nothing that matters, and that they have no alliances and experience with the wider world.

BTW you may also then know so very little then, the leader of the AF and founder of CW do not speak to each other, and there are many many other disputes too.

D) If people want to attack critical thinking beyond ultra left anarchist forms that I have expressed then that is their problem, I defend myself The anarchists refuse to confront critical and in places imho fatal flaws in their political thought and practice, and that is what 20 years plus experience in the anarchist movement has taught me.

How many times must I say there is a desperate need for pluralism? It is true that the ultra left forms of anarchism I am less tolerant of than I used to be but that is not to say that I do not engage with them. If one truth is told, sadly, the anarchists fetishise themselves.