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[trashpony]

Im just having a debate on another forum, where many people are insisting 5-7 years is the average life expectancy for an indoor-outdoor cat..... that can't be right, surely?

All my cats have lived until 18 plus so no, I don't think that's true

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Im just having a debate on another forum, where many people are insisting 5-7 years is the average life expectancy for an indoor-outdoor cat..... that can't be right, surely?

dunno.

i suppose that a mathematical average would include cats that died young of illnesses / accidents. cats that go outdoors are at greater risk of both, so it might be (mathematically) correct.

but a mathematical average does not mean that figure is the most likely outcome - cats that have survived to 5-7 year old are likely to be overall in reasonable health, and if they have been outdoor cats they stand a chance of grasping the basics of feline road safety by then.

to illustrate, the average man has slightly less than two cobblers. doesn't mean you'll find anyone with 1.99 (or whatever figure it actually is) though.

median, mean and mode, or some such.

cats next door where i live now have lived to 25 (very rarely ventured further into the outside world than the front doorstep) and 19 (local chief cat - tiny fluffy tortie - not aggressive but would escort dogs off the premises if anyone walked a dog along the path at the edge of the garden here. keeled over with a heart attack while chasing leaves an autumn or two ago)

 

[toggle]

Im just having a debate on another forum, where many people are insisting 5-7 years is the average life expectancy for an indoor-outdoor cat..... that can't be right, surely?

these figures all seem to come from US sites where keeping cats indoors is considered the normal and responsible thing to do. i would have thought that this is also influenced by the fact they have preditors that can prey on cats and a lot more arseholes that think an appropriate response to a 'trespassing cat' is to reach for firearms or toxins.

it will also be influenced by the norm of indoor cats. a cat that suddenly finds itself outside with no experience of that (and quite possibly having been mutilated to remove it's defensive and climbing ability) is in a lot more danger than a cat that has been carefully introduced to outside and learned it's environment. and some of it will be blatent propeganda, created by including feral cats in figures.

So i'd suggest asking for figures that aren't US based and biased. from legit sources. because the uk based places I've looked at all tend to suggest cat life expectancy is usually 12-17 years, which is breed dependent, with a few hitting their early 20s which are mostly moggies, and make no mention of the indoor only thing and tend to assume that indoor-outdoor is the norm, so their life expectancy figures will refer to that.

 

[toggle]

and do you really believe that every uk cat charity recomends outdoor access for any cat that can have outdoor access if they thought it was knocking 2/3 or more off the cats lifespan?

 

[Orang Utan]

Please give Missy a little stroke from me, if she's amenable to it.

She's doing OK:

 

[Epona]

Im just having a debate on another forum, where many people are insisting 5-7 years is the average life expectancy for an indoor-outdoor cat..... that can't be right, surely?

Is this forum mostly US-based perchance?

I mean I am in the UK and have indoor-only cats and that is unusual here (not only is it unusual, but I have been criticised as being cruel for having indoor cats), in the US it is the 'civilised' norm, and people can get slightly melodramatic about cats being allowed outdoors. You do have to take into account that some areas in the US have bigger wildlife than in the UK that poses more of a risk, also rabies, and in some areas a feral cat problem that can put pet cats at risk of FIV and FeLV... but they are accustomed to indoor-only and do kind of get a "the sky is falling!!!" mentality about indoor/outdoor life.

Declawing for cosmetic/convenience reasons is also legal in the US, so they don't have any upper hand when it comes to cat welfare - take it all with a pinch of salt.

EDIT: I would say 5-7 years would probably be about right in terms of life expectancy for an unspayed feral female churning out 2-3 litters a year unchecked from 9 months old, exposed to diseases, and with no veterinary care, vaccinations, regular good food, or shelter - not for a neutered pet cat.

 

[Epona]

I have major problems with getting my cat to the vet

You don't need to take your cat to the vet to get a prescription for flea/worm treatment (and yes it can all be done in one spot-on treatment these days) - just phone or pop in to your regular vet and tell them you want a flea/worm spot on for your cat, the cat does not need an appointment to be seen by the vet.

For adult cats, treatment typically comes in dose sizes for up to 4kg (around 10lbs if you use old money) in bodyweight, or above 4kg for big bastards. Kittens need to be weighed to get the correct dose and some treatments cannot be used on kittens or pregnant queens, but for non-reproductive adult cats the above applies.

 

[sim667]

You don't need to take your cat to the vet to get a prescription for flea/worm treatment (and yes it can all be done in one spot-on treatment these days) - just phone or pop in to your regular vet and tell them you want a flea/worm spot on for your cat, the cat does not need an appointment to be seen by the vet.

For adult cats, treatment typically comes in dose sizes for up to 4kg (around 10lbs if you use old money) in bodyweight, or above 4kg for big bastards. Kittens need to be weighed to get the correct dose and some treatments cannot be used on kittens or pregnant queens, but for non-reproductive adult cats the above applies.

She's a big cat, definately over 5kg

 

[Manter]

the idiot has decided he likes a bit of pre-prepared mango. Weird cat

 

[Vintage Paw]

Every time Peggy pisses on the floor I break down shortly afterwards and sob for an hour. It's distilling all my grief for Charlie.

Sucks.

 

[oryx]

Every time Peggy pisses on the floor I break down shortly afterwards and sob for an hour. It's distilling all my grief for Charlie.

Sucks.

((Vintage Paw))

She can probably smell his scent and wants to 'assert herself' in your home.

It has taken me years to come to terms with losing our cat who died very tragically eight years ago so I can totally empathise but to use a massive cliché, time is a healer.

 

[Epona]

Every time Peggy pisses on the floor I break down shortly afterwards and sob for an hour. It's distilling all my grief for Charlie.

Sucks.

I'm sorry to hear this is happening frequently - is it possible that this is why she kept ending up back at the shelter?

My Jakey, bless his little cotton socks, has an extremely loose bladder around fresh laundry and bed linen. You can pretty much see the glint in his eyes as he spots a pile of laundry. It can be really exasperating at times. He is the reason I now have a large capacity washing machine, so it can take our heaviest duvets. I love him dearly, but it is annoying (although I am kind of used to it now).

You need to scrub any areas of wall/carpet/skirtingboard where she has pissed with a solution of biological washing powder in warm (not hot) water (wear a pair of marigolds in case it irritates your skin). Bio detergent breaks down the proteins in urine so it can no longer be detected by cats. Better, if possible, to get a product called "urine-off" which is a spray on enzyme cleaner. Spray it on, leave it for a bit, and wash it off. Once cleaned, spray the area with Feliway.

If you catch her in the act, say "NO" firmly but without raising your voice, and calmly put her in a litter tray, then give praise for being in the appropriate place.

Have you tried a different type of litter? It may be an idea to go back to basics and get some sand (not the highly orange stuff that builders use, but the non-staining stuff used in kiddies sandpits). If she wants to go in corners, put a litter tray there.

EDIT: Oh and trust me, I love Jakey to the end of the world and back, but there are times when I have been in tears because I went to go to bed only to find that I was lying down in a puddle of piss and had to do a shit load of laundry before I could sleep. It can be really frustrating.

In behavioural terms, I would say it is due to territorial insecurity (which is often more of a 'thing' for female cats than males). I have had mixed results with Feliway, but it does help in some cases.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Thank you. I'll take a look at the urine-off stuff. I've been using a cat-specific cleaner thing, it's marketed for cleaning litter trays but can be used elsewhere, and then spraying with feliway, but of course their sense of smell is far better than ours so who knows what's being left behind.

I didn't think it was her litter because she's using it with seemingly no problem every day. When I see her using it it doesn't look like she's put off by its texture, she has a little dig, sets up position, and away she goes. She was using similar if not the same litter in the shelter. They're quite upfront about why their cats are rehomed and if there are any problems with them, and they didn't mention anything like this. In fact, they specifically said it was through no fault of her own, but that owners either moved away, split up, or her most recent one simply became too ill to look after her any more.

Her tray is about 2 feet away from where she's been pissing. I've been moving it a bit closer, in the hopes that its proximity might make her go there instead. I'll start putting it right in that corner. I was worried she'd just start going somewhere else instead, but she's been enough times there now that it seems there is something about that spot. The problem is it's right behind the back door, which is in continual use, but as much as humanly possible I'll try to make sure it's kept behind there. Charlie never spent any time in that spot, so there's no reason it would smell any more strongly of him than anywhere else, and indeed I had a good clean and scrub of the kitchen before she came here. The biggest thing is if she's smelling something from the back yard and that's setting her off. There are cats around here, although I haven't seen one in the yard for a while - but there has been something in the yard because when we had loads of black bags out there waiting for the tip a couple of them got ripped open. They were decently large rips, so I didn't think rats (despite living sandwiched between two canals, I've never actually seen a rat near the house), so possibly cats or the urban fox who makes its way around from time to time. She has a really good sniff at the bottom of the door, along the crack, and of course we use the back door a lot so we'll be bringing in back yard smells on our feet. So yeah, my main thought is a combination of general moving stress, and being territorial, wanting to assert her dominance in light of all these smells. I didn't know female cats are more likely to be anxious about that actually, thanks for that - I think I'd thought it would likely be the other way around.

It might be that I just have to accept this is a thing she does to make herself feel more comfortable. Hearing about everyone else's experiences with (semi)regular naughty wees helps, but it'll take some time to chill out about it, mostly because I'm still grieving for Charlie and each incident is like a slap in the face because "Charlie didn't used to do that" (which is stupid but understandable) leading to "oh god, I miss Charlie and I wish he was here now" and endless tears. Maybe it was too soon, idk, but Peggy needed someone and frankly I did too. It is what it is now though, and I'm determined to make the best of it, and to continue to love her and bond with her regardless.

 

[Epona]

If she is pissing right by a door that is used frequently, it's almost certainly territorial insecurity - she's worried about the comings and goings and wants to mark the area as "THIS IS MY TERRITORY" in the strongest way possible, which for a cat is urine-marking.

I actually wonder if a tall scratching post there would allow her to mark in a less offensive way, by stropping on an appropriate object rather than weeing inappropriately.

EDIT: Oh and of course you are still grieving for Charlie and miss him dearly - it is no reflection on either you or her that you feel sad about losing him, in fact I think it would be weird if stuff like this didn't remind you of losing him, grief is a part of love and a part of being a decent human.

 

[Bakunin]

Yes Mutt, this cat really does rule with an iron paw:

 

[Vintage Paw]

If she is pissing right by a door that is used frequently, it's almost certainly territorial insecurity - she's worried about the comings and goings and wants to mark the area as "THIS IS MY TERRITORY" in the strongest way possible, which for a cat is urine-marking.

I actually wonder if a tall scratching post there would allow her to mark in a less offensive way, by stropping on an appropriate object rather than weeing inappropriately.

EDIT: Oh and of course you are still grieving for Charlie and miss him dearly - it is no reflection on either you or her that you feel sad about losing him, in fact I think it would be weird if stuff like this didn't remind you of losing him, grief is a part of love and a part of being a decent human.

Thank you for all of this.

What you say about the door and territory makes an awful lot of sense. We use it as our primary door at the moment because the front door lock is broken (only locks from outside, getting it replaced in the next couple of weeks), so apart from the odd visitor or delivery all comings and goings are from that door. She gets quite spooked when him indoors comes home from work through that door, although she doesn't bat an eyelid if one of us goes out that way to put rubbish out (although her first pissing incident was when we were both in there, and locked her in the living room, while we had the door open).

She's still clingy in a less overt way than when she first arrived. She'll wake up and start crying for us, whether we're in the room or not, and need a stroke and some love before she settles down. She often insists on leading me upstairs and gets a bit anxious if I don't follow - I have to follow her around upstairs, and invariably end up on the bed having a tickle with some purrs and a few miaows. She'll settle down to sleep if I lie there with her, and then I can escape, but sometimes she demands a good old play with 'hide the hand under the cover' or 'get angry at the ping pong ball' first She's obviously insecure, and who could blame her? I have no doubt that in time she'll feel more at home and less worried she's about to be abandoned again, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some remnants of this that continue forever. And that's okay.

I'll see about getting a cheap scratching post. Good idea. I've got a massive one upstairs she likes to use, but I'm not dragging that thing down. A cheap one that can get chucked if she pisses on the base will be ideal.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Yes Mutt, this cat really does rule with an iron paw:

That's quite fantastic

 

[Cribynkle]

Something has terrified my poor Archie I had to take him to the vets last weeks because he had a big scab on his chin - the kind that they usually get from cat fights so I took him in to make sure it didn't turn into an abscess.
All was then fine and dandy until yesterday evening he was just slinking around hiding behind things and staring at the cat flap with massive dilated pupils. He's the same this morning and he's not miaowed once when he's usually a super shouty cat. He's even let Higgins push him out the way and eat half of his breakfast
Poor little thing, I've had to being in a litter tray for him because he's refusing to go outside to use it. Even catnip's not helping him chill out.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Has another cat come in the cat flap? Or whoever gave him his scab, were they just outside? Sounds like he's being or has been bullied by some new cat. Not sure about the solution to that one, other than give him plenty of places to hide just outside the cat flap, so he doesn't have to go straight through the hole into the big unknown where he might worry there's a bruiser waiting for him. Give him time, lots of love if he wants it, don't pressure him to go out if he's scared. Make indoors his absolute safe space and take it slowly.

(((Archie)))

 

[Vintage Paw]

I have had a new mixer tap fitted in the kitchen. It's been a long time coming, the old separate cold tap had been leaking for years.

As soon as the plumber left, Peg was staring intently at the sink, and then jumped up, and it's been hard to get her away from there since. Turns out perhaps she'd always been used to a mixer tap in the past. She seems very fond of it. She likes to rub her head against it, she has drunk from the stream, she likes to play with the water, and now she will drink a little from a glass kept full of water left in the sink.

Downside is that in turning off the stop tap, which was seized up, it developed a little leak so I'm going to have to get that sorted which may be an easy job or might be a horrific big job depending on how the pipework holds up. This is why I put jobs off.

 

[Cribynkle]

Has another cat come in the cat flap? Or whoever gave him his scab, were they just outside? Sounds like he's being or has been bullied by some new cat. Not sure about the solution to that one, other than give him plenty of places to hide just outside the cat flap, so he doesn't have to go straight through the hole into the big unknown where he might worry there's a bruiser waiting for him. Give him time, lots of love if he wants it, don't pressure him to go out if he's scared. Make indoors his absolute safe space and take it slowly.

(((Archie)))

I'm not sure it's another cat, the cat flap only lets our two in and out so definitely not getting in. And he loves other cats - just bumbles up to them, sniffs them and headbutts them. If they get offended, he then thinks of fights as playing and usually comes off best - he has no social graces at all He doesn't have any injuries that I can find so thankfully another (expensive) trip to the vet doesn't look like it's necessary

Next door sometimes have a staffy come and visit so possibly he was in their garden and chased out by it Or I suppose it could be a fox but the ones round this way aren't very aggressive - I caught Higgins playing with one once

Luckily he's not one of the world's great thinkers and seems to be forgetting it a bit. His miaow's returned and he's venturing outside slowly but I'm going out with him to make sure he doesn't get spooked.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I hope he gets back to his usual self asap.

That cat watch programme last year said it was a good idea to have hidey places right by the cat flap anyway, because it can be quite stressful going through this tight space into the big unknown where anything could be hiding just out of their line of sight. Might be worth putting a box or some plant pots either side so there's somewhere to hide behind and feel safe just in case.

 

[Shirl]

He's already bagged his winter spot

 

[Ms T]

Our cats are utterly delighted we are back from holiday. They have overcome their antipathy to one another to the extent that they are both sleeping on the bed with us at night. At opposite ends, mind.

 

[Epona]

I'll see about getting a cheap scratching post. Good idea. I've got a massive one upstairs she likes to use, but I'm not dragging that thing down. A cheap one that can get chucked if she pisses on the base will be ideal.

If you use Zooplus regularly, check your reward points to see if you can get anything from the reward shop - a little while back, mine managed to stretch as far as a free "scratch barrel" which is a sisal covered plywood barrel type thing with carpeted hidey holes in it, so if you have some points built up it may be worth a look to see if they have anything suitable on offer.

 

[Epona]

Also depending on how she likes to scratch, a small kitten one may be OK - I know my Radar prefers to stretch forwards from a position a bit away from the post and scratch at low level and is perfectly happy with an 18" scratching post (although Jakey prefers to stretch up to his full height standing fully upright on his hind legs when stropping, so a smaller one wouldn't fit the bill for him, he needs a 3' job).

 

[Epona]

He's already bagged his winter spot

Radar is thinking about his winter spot too, keeps poking me in the face with his paw when I am asleep because he wants to be let under the duvet It is sweet and gentle but also really bloody annoying, it takes him several attempts to get under the duvet before he finds optimal comfortable cat position - then once he is comfy he purrs really loudly for a good half hour, usually mangling my arm by kneading on it at the same time

Basically I can tell when autumn has arrived because that is when I sleep with a small white cat with black patches gripped onto one of my limbs under the duvet.

 

[Ms T]

Ours have started using their radiator beds again, even though the heating is still off. And sleeping with us at night.

Re scratching posts. The best thing I ever bought from Lidl is one that you fix to the corner of a wall. It's almost worn out and I have just bought a replacement from Zooplus.

 

[trabuquera]

Loancat has confirmed his perverted, semi-vegetarian ways (already tested on hummus, tomatoes and boiled potato) by nearly clawing my arm off to get to ... broccoli. Despite having two plates of cat food (one fish, one meat) available it was the green cruciferous veg which he HAD TO HAVE. Ate five or six small spears of it. Weirdest of all he likes the stem ends, not the flowery end. Freak.

 

[Epona]

Loancat has confirmed his perverted, semi-vegetarian ways (already tested on hummus, tomatoes and boiled potato) by nearly clawing my arm off to get to ... broccoli. Despite having two plates of cat food (one fish, one meat) available it was the green cruciferous veg which he HAD TO HAVE. Ate five or six small spears of it. Weirdest of all he likes the stem ends, not the flowery end. Freak.

Oh yeah Radar loves broccoli, he once stole a head of broccoli out of the veg rack (this was the point when we decided to keep veg in a cupboard from that point on) and ripped a load of it apart, played with some florets, "killed" some, ate some - it was kind of hilarious, but really quite messy, and he got the shits afterwards.

Sonic goes mad for a little bit of mashed potato.

(EDIT: I feel I ought to add, hummous not a good idea if it contains garlic, which a good hummous ought to - garlic is toxic to cats and can cause a type of anaemia. Same goes for onions and leeks)

(EDIT again to give a link that includes details plus some other veg that cats should not be allowed to eat: Anemia Due to Red Blood Cell Damage in Cats | petMD )