'You should be grateful that you live in a country where you have equal rights'

[Cloo]

People who believe 'equal rights have gone too far' or that privilege isn't real often come out with statements like 'Be grateful you live in a country where you have equal rights, I mean, you're not a woman in Saudi Arabia'. But there's an argument about that I don't think I've ever heard anyone make (though be interested if anyone here knows of examples) and I think is pretty salient,

If I have equal rights, why do I have to be 'grateful'? My rights should be inalienable. Having to be grateful to someone for them means I do not actually have 'equal rights' because there is a part of the population - rich, white, male, cis, heterosexual, able bodied, whose rights are not inalienable and who still essentially has the power to grant or remove mine. Rights they have always taken for granted have had to be earned by everyone else, because they are the granters of those rights.

As Roe v Wade has shown, a government could come along and take away my bodily autonomy. The American government that's incoming could dissolve marriages of single sex couples (or at least prevent others getting married) or even decide to rule out interracial marriage if it wanted. So this inequality of who gets to grant rights seems pretty obvious proof to me that we are not 'equal' until rights are inalienable.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Also some people give little thought to how progress was made. It didn’t just happen, it was fought for - by people who were always told to shut up and accept their lot. And as you say, progress can be eroded.

So be grateful for the people who fought those struggles. We owe it to them to carry on their legacy of being annoying.

 

[ice-is-forming]

Yes- there is nothing radical about human rights

 

[xenon]

Rights are always contingent on power. This sounds a bit cynical but yeah true. I mean at a wider political level. Not individuals to individuals. For example I don’t abuse other peoples rights, autonomy because I don’t have the power I do it because morals, ethical framework, nature nature or whatever. However, as societal level, rights are meaningless largely and unless you have the power to enforce them. That does sound a bit cynical I know. But from the barrel of a gun and all that stuff.

 

[xenon]

Therefore, they need robust defending. Not mild acquiescence. I’m just thinking loud here. Not criticising anything in the OP.

 

[Cloo]

Oh, absolutely. The Far Right is very keen on Schrodinger's Rights which are simultaneously a privilege, but honest guv, they won't get taken away. They're very keen on rights being something only Others go on about, because 'normal people' just have rights and nothing will happen to those.

 

[Lotte]

It always feels like a threat. We have these rights, but they could easily be taken away from us.

 

[xenon]

Yeah it’s very revealing of anyone that comes out with that sentiment. Like these are things we’ve afforded you if you rock the boat we can take them away. You’re only allowed to be who you are because of our benefince. Indicative of the zero sum mindset and I would say insecurity especially from those who don’t actually have any real power.

 

[Humberto]

There's an outright bigot segment and also an adjacent army of insecure, somewhat less but still in effect bigoted people sympathetic to the notion that 'they are taking it too far'. P.C's gone mad and all that. Throw in moral panics, appeals to some more legitimate grievances by cynical operators to confuse it all and populists can take advantage. By 'legitimate' I simply mean examples like housing and cost of living concerns, obscuring who really is oppressing you.

 

[Lotte]

And they'd yeet gay men off buildings if they could, let's not kid ourselves.

 

[xenon]

There's an outright bigot segment and also an adjacent army of insecure, somewhat less but still in effect bigoted people sympathetic to the notion that 'they are taking it too far'. P.C's gone mad and all that. Throw in moral panics, appeals to some more legitimate grievances by cynical operators to confuse it all and populists can take advantage. By 'legitimate' I simply mean examples like housing and cost of living concerns, obscuring who really is oppressing you.

Yeah good point. I have thoughts on this but may expand it tomorrow when I’ve got a keyboard in front of me.

 

[story]

This is an increasingly salient topic. And I think Cloo has highlighted one of the most tricky aspects.



Nations make policy about rights, and those rights do need to be embedded in the culture and then repeatedly supported by that culture. The Roe v Wade thing illustrates how politics and culture can undermine rights that are supposed (in both senses of that word) to be steady and reliable.

Over and above the rights nations grant to their own people we got the The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR). It’s probably worth reminding ourselves what that document is, how it was developed, what those rights are.

The main point here though is that those rights are considered / said to be inalienable. But it’s not legally binding, and some nations didn’t sign it.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://www.ohchr.org/en/universal-declaration-of-human-rights

Since it’s human-made, and was made some time ago, the UDHR isn’t perfect. It needs to be updated at the very least, or completely overhauled. It’s probably becoming more necessary for all this ti be revisited and for the entire notion of universal rights, inalienable rights to be underlined and strengthened.

I reckon it’s becoming more likely that people have a lessened sense of universal rights, inalienable rights.

With this lurch to the right and the rise of populism, we need to be more clear about what we’re defending, who we’re defending it for, why it’s so fucking important.

Rather than letting it just be part of the background wallpaper, a kind of woolly general feeling that we each have rights, and they kinda apply to other people too, we need to be more conscious of what’s at risk and what could be eroded.


There’s a genuine risk that if we’re not fully aware of these larger, basic rights we’ll find ourselves defending them with less ground beneath our feet.

There are the various disgusting tyrants shovelling their shit around their own and neighbouring nations (also the cyber stuff), all of which attacks human rights.

There’s a bunch of stuff happening with the UK working to reform or opt out of European Human rights. That’s ongoing but it’s not in the news, it’s all pretty obscure if you’re not inside the story.

And Trump is generally recognised as a potential threat not only to the rights of Americans, but also to people all across the globe. I can see him going after the “inalienable” rights too.

Trump is on an Orwellian mission to redefine human rights | Michael H Fuchs

It has long been abundantly clear Trump has no respect for human rights. Now Pompeo wants to build a new framework to justify the rollback of protections

www.theguardian.com

US: Second Trump Term a Threat to Rights in US, World

Donald Trump’s second term as United States president poses a grave threat to human rights in the United States and the world, Human Rights Watch said today. These concerns reflect Trump’s rights-abusing record during his first term, his embrace of white supremacist supporters and ideology, the...

www.hrw.org

Some (all?) of our rights are held up by a kind of rickety scaffold that relies on everyone else around us holding their ground, a sort of mutual human pyramid of support, or like a big game of Jenga with blocks of morals and ethics and rights.

If one of the critical parts of that scaffold steps away or collapses, so does everything else. America has always prided itself on being the biggest/ best strong and reliable support (albeit with arrogance and bullying). With Trump in charge, that strut could disappear, and the rest of the structure would be at risk of falling into chaos and loss.


So if the biggest baddest rich able-bodied white cis-het male on the planet is simultaneously bigoted, powerful, petty, and power hungry, there’s a genuine risk that Cloo ‘s script will play out.

 

[story]

And let’s not forget this from 2019

The Unbelievable Hypocrisy of Trump’s New “Unalienable Rights” Panel

The world reacted with disbelief when the Trump Administration announced it was creating a new commission to explore “unalienable rights” in U.S. foreign policy.

www.newyorker.com

 

[Cloo]

It always feels like a threat. We have these rights, but they could easily be taken away from us.

The thing is most people who say it don't even realise that. Because most people who say it don't have rights that are at risk.

 

[ska invita]

Yes- there is nothing radical about human rights

I know what you mean ... yet human rights (by my benchmark) are enjoyed by a fairly small minority of people on this planet

 

[PTK]

Some rights seem to involve requiring someone else to do something.
Surely some rights cannot be exercised if others are not willing to do your bidding?
The right to abortion cannot be exercised is no-one is prepared to carry out that procedure.
The right to work cannot be exercised if no-one is prepared to employ you.
There are two kinds of rights, the freedom to do something and the freedom to not have something done to you.

 

[furluxor]

People have said some good stuff about equality, I thought I'll add in from the other direction - gratitude.

The whole "be grateful that..." advice is always delivered about something that feels abstract. From my parents (you don't want to eat something? Think about the starving children in Africa and be grateful), to my partner (you don't like your job? Be grateful you're not in a dead-end 9-to-5 with no prospect of something else), I reject it all. It feels spiritual in nature (grateful to whom? God?) and the purpose behind it is just chiding, pointing out that you're stepping above your station, asking too much of life. Well, I think people should want more from life, not less.

If you turned that around they wouldn't like it.
Oh, you're ill? Just be grateful it's not terminal.
Feeling sad? Be grateful you don't have real problems like some other people.
Women ghost you on Tinder? Government takes too much in tax? No one wants to be your friend? Fucking gratitude-journal.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

If you turned that around they wouldn't like it.
Oh, you're ill? Just be grateful it's not terminal.
Feeling sad? Be grateful you don't have real problems like some other people.
Women ghost you on Tinder? Government takes too much in tax? No one wants to be your friend? Fucking gratitude-journal.

Yeah, I've noticed the "be grateful" lecture often comes from the most entitled people of all.

 

[A380]

The thing is most people who say it don't even realise that. Because most people who say it don't have rights that are at risk.

They just don’t realise they do…

 

[A380]

Yeah, I've noticed the "be grateful" lecture often comes from the most entitled people of all.

I’d turn that round. I think the 80 odd years of relative prosperity we have had in the global north has lulled the 1% into a feeling of complacency. They are in the second or third generation too and are pushing their luck and grabbing more in their greed. It’s why they were so fearful of the shooting of the CEO in NY recently.

In the same way as Putin is overplaying his hand with the West the 1% here risk bringing down our wrath on their heads.

Have more confidence in humanity people. We can cut their heads off again if it gets too bad.

 

[Serge Forward]

Yes- there is nothing radical about human rights

Agreed, all such human rights are granted (usually) by the State, yet at the same time these rights have been fought for throughout history and are often made as concessions by the powers that be (bigger cages, longer chains). But in a world where in some places they're pretty much non existant and in places where they do exist, they're being eroded, then the concept of human rights becomes increasingly radical.

 

[Cloo]

Yes- there is nothing radical about human rights

I think it was the Secret Barrister who said that when people start talking about others having 'too many rights', ask who benefits from people having fewer rights?

 

[ice-is-forming]

I do a fair bit of systemic Human Rights advocacy - of course I understand that it is pretty radical in lots of places to actually have human rights, but here in Australia, doing this work, I refuse to buy into or engage with the narrative that we should be overly grateful for them, lucky or have to beg for them like it's something special. ( But I get that they are special)

Human rights should be a part of business as usual here - if we start to talk about them as the icing on the cake, or worse, the cherry on the top - people will stop remembering that they are actually basic rights enshrined in law that everyone is entitled to.

It's just been my experience that if I engage in conversations like this, treating rights as non radical, then I don't reinforce the predominant narrative that human rights are a luxury.

That made sense in my head - but I'm not sure it reads well

 

[story]

I think I understand ice-is-forming

I've been thinking about the small radical things I can do in my day to day life, things that might seem simple or self evident yet are eroded diminished undermined or otherwise discouraged by conditioning, by capitalism, Patriarchy all of it.


Things like assuming the best of people, being generous/sharing, putting needs and priorities ahead of shit like proliferation of income (my own as well.as those of others). Trying to re-jig the way I live and interact with the system from a perspective of not allowing the system to drive me.

In other words, see and push back on my own conditioning. And do that in the spirit of radicalism (change at the very root).

I've not got to the point where I could fully explain it yet, but I think this chat about rights is a part of it.

So, while assuming and allowing that everyone of us has equivalent and reciprocal rights, and treating others as well as myself with that as a given, also recognising - and acting as if - that's a potentially radical and even revolutionary act.

So, not from a place of easy privilege, rather as something that requires constant attention, so that I'm acting in accord with those assumptions, in everything I do. And reflecting on what I have done today/this week that needs adjustment.



I guess this could be lumped under the cliché of be the change you want to see.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I do a fair bit of systemic Human Rights advocacy - of course I understand that it is pretty radical in lots of places to actually have human rights, but here in Australia, doing this work, I refuse to buy into or engage with the narrative that we should be overly grateful for them, lucky or have to beg for them like it's something special. ( But I get that they are special)

Human rights should be a part of business as usual here - if we start to talk about them as the icing on the cake, or worse, the cherry on the top - people will stop remembering that they are actually basic rights enshrined in law that everyone is entitled to.

It's just been my experience that if I engage in conversations like this, treating rights as non radical, then I don't reinforce the predominant narrative that human rights are a luxury.

That made sense in my head - but I'm not sure it reads well

Yeah, it makes total sense. Regarding feeling grateful for rights, that begs the question: 'Grateful to whom exactly?' Oh thank you, powerful ones, for not shtting on me?

It's fair enough in some abstract sense to express gratitude to people who fought for and won rights in the past. But aside from that, there is nobody to whom we should feel grateful. We certainly shouldn't feel grateful to the system. For what? For not being even shitter than it is?

 

[story]

I think I understand ice-is-forming

I've been thinking about the small radical things I can do in my day to day life, things that might seem simple or self evident yet are eroded diminished undermined or otherwise discouraged by conditioning, by capitalism, Patriarchy all of it.


Things like assuming the best of people, being generous/sharing, putting needs and priorities ahead of shit like proliferation of income (my own as well.as those of others). Trying to re-jig the way I live and interact with the system from a perspective of not allowing the system to drive me.

In other words, see and push back on my own conditioning. And do that in the spirit of radicalism (change at the very root).

I've not got to the point where I could fully explain it yet, but I think this chat about rights is a part of it.

So, while assuming and allowing that everyone of us has equivalent and reciprocal rights, and treating others as well as myself with that as a given, also recognising - and acting as if - that's a potentially radical and even revolutionary act.

So, not from a place of easy privilege, rather as something that requires constant attention, so that I'm acting in accord with those assumptions, in everything I do. And reflecting on what I have done today/this week that needs adjustment.



I guess this could be lumped under the cliché of be the change you want to see.

I see this happening a lot in the workplace. Like reluctance to unionise in case it makes the boss cross, not standing up for each other in case it makes you look difficult, allowing the pressure of work to eat into private time, putting the work ahead of family needs, personal needs.

A built in assumption that work (ie profit) takes precedence over the individual. That’s essentially supporting capitalism over humanity.