You know that 24 million for mental health care, it's not going to the NHS.

[stethoscope]

Those poor Lib Dems that must have been forced into doing things they didn't want to do in power by those nasty Tories.

If only they could rule on their own.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Aiming to help people with mental health issues who would actually benefit from some sort of work (which doesn't necessarily mean a job as normally understood, where hours and other aspects are dictated by an employer) isn't in itself a bad thing, but suggesting that everyone with mental health issues will benefit by being pushed into the sort of work which is generally available is damaging to many of those who have different needs, firstly because some will feel worse as a result of having to work, but also because the one-size-fits-all approach means there is now very little provision for more complex needs within the NHS.

This smacks of short-term electioneering by people who neither know nor care anything about the complexities of the range of needs of those of us with mental health issues which currently go untreated.

It has to be done sensitively and the devil is in the detail. However, from my observation, people with MH issues (esp when these become addiction issues), generally get a lot worse when they leave work. There are days when I really don't want to go to work, but I just have to (there being no other option) and, with some luck, at some point in the day the 'light' flickers on. Maybe you could replace work with just having a general structure to the day - but I think that's important. Certain MH issues will just want to make you isolate yourself, but long term that's only going to things make worse.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

you know one definition of madness is doing exactly the same thing twice and expecting a different rrsult second time round?

So you think we should go back to Labour? Politics is often like that; voting for the best of a bad bunch. For people saying I shouldn't vote Lib Dem, I'd love to hear who they're voting for...

 

[andysays]

It has to be done sensitively and the devil is in the detail. However, from my observation, people with MH issues (esp when these become addiction issues), generally get a lot worse when they leave work. There are days when I really don't want to go to work, but I just have to (there being no other option) and, with some luck, at some point in the day the 'light' flickers on. Maybe you could replace work with just having a general structure to the day - but I think that's important. Certain MH issues will just want to make you isolate yourself, but long term that's only going to things make worse.

Yes, for some people that's probably all true, but what about the rest of us who, for instance, have started working again after many years where MH stuff made it impossible, then started to struggle, asked for help from the NHS and found that all that was on offer was relatively superficial and short term IAPT stuff which didn't help, so had to stop working, and is still waiting for more substantial help over two years later?

What is your mate Nick going to do for people like me?

 

[Looby]

.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Yes, for some people that's probably all true, but what about the rest of us who, for instance, have started working again after many years where MH stuff made it impossible, then started to struggle, asked for help from the NHS and found that all that was on offer was relatively superficial and short term IAPT stuff which didn't help, so had to stop working, and is still waiting for more substantial help over two years later?

What is your mate Nick going to do for people like me?

He's not my mate. And I totally agree that there should be more MH help available for those looking for it.

 

[Pickman's model]

So you think we should go back to Labour? Politics is often like that; voting for the best of a bad bunch. For people saying I shouldn't vote Lib Dem, I'd love to hear who they're voting for...

i think we shouldn't have a government at all

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Yep, that's exactly how it is for those with debilitating mental health conditions. I haven't been to work since June because I didn't feel like it. If only I'd realised it was so easy to sort it out.

I think you might be the most ignorant/stupid/pig-headed/arrogant/shit-stirring/fuckwitted* poster I've ever encountered.
*delete as appropriate because I still can't decide if you're actually for real.

I don't know how you feel. You don't know how I feel, which is actually pretty rotten at times. I can be sitting at my desk feeling anxious, unable to concentrate, wondering what I'm doing there - very occasionally I pop a tiny bit of etizolam at work if the anxious feelings don't disappear after a reasonable time. If you don't want to go the doctor (because you don't want to go on meds and don't really want to discuss your deepest issues), struggling through and hoping things get better later in the day (feeling worse early in the morning is AFAIK one sign of depression) is all you can do. Many people who have MH issues aren't diagnosed, so don't assume I know nothing about it.

 

[Looby]

Fuck it

 

[weltweit]

A timely article for this thread:

Mental health service budgets 'cut by 8%'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31970871

Mental health trusts in England have seen their budgets fall by more than 8% in real terms over the course of this parliament, figures suggest.

The reduction, worth almost £600m, was revealed through research by BBC News and the online journal Community Care.

At the same time, referrals to community mental health teams, which help people avoid being admitted to hospital, have risen nearly 20%.

 

[andysays]

He's not my mate. And I totally agree that there should be more MH help available for those looking for it.

But it's not simply about more help, it's about the right sort of help, help which actually meets the particular needs of those who need help.

At the moment*, policy around MH seems to be based on the idea that since short term IAPT-type counselling and encouraging people back to work helps some people, everyone with MH issues will benefit from that and should be encouraged/forced down that road, to the extent that other treatments are almost impossible to access.

It's like saying that antibiotics are very successful at treating certain physical illnesses, so everyone with a physical illness gets antibiotics.

* and I suspect this goes back to the previous Labour government and their fondness for setting and meeting targets - we'll treat those whose problems are the easiest/quickest/cheapest to treat, and fuck anyone else.

 

[SpookyFrank]

you know one definition of madness is doing exactly the same thing twice and expecting a different rrsult second time round?

Wasn't it Einstein said that? Odd really, considering the scientific method is based on the idea of doing the same thing several times and seeing whether you get different results.

 

[equationgirl]

I don't know how you feel. You don't know how I feel, which is actually pretty rotten at times. I can be sitting at my desk feeling anxious, unable to concentrate, wondering what I'm doing there - very occasionally I pop a tiny bit of etizolam at work if the anxious feelings don't disappear after a reasonable time. If you don't want to go the doctor (because you don't want to go on meds and don't really want to discuss your deepest issues), struggling through and hoping things get better later in the day (feeling worse early in the morning is AFAIK one sign of depression) is all you can do. Many people who have MH issues aren't diagnosed, so don't assume I know nothing about it.

Your GP can give you a diagnosis and the correct meds for your condition. Self-diagnois and self-medicating may not be the best longterm strategy. But you are an adult, it's your choice.

 

[purenarcotic]

It's the same old shit, innit. Your only value in society is your economic worth and everything should be about getting you to a position where you can perform that role.

 

[andysays]

It's the same old shit, innit. Your only value in society is your economic worth and everything should be about getting you to a position where you can perform that role.

not forgetting getting you into that position as quickly and as cheaply as possible, and if you can't be got there quickly and cheaply enough, you're more or less on your own.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's the same old shit, innit. Your only value in society is your economic worth and everything should be about getting you to a position where you can perform that role.

i notice they've promoted osborn beyond his capacities to perform that role.

 

[superfly101]

Health Work & Wellbeing

Google it.

Removal of GPs role, NHS MH care only at point of access via IAPT and all beyond that via private health care/DWP program providers i.e. A4E/Ingus/ATOS/etc

 

[smokedout]

This smacks of short-term electioneering by people who neither know nor care anything about the complexities of the range of needs of those of us with mental health issues which currently go untreated.

It's absolutely not unfortunately. There is an unshakeable consensus now, amongst the top end of the medical establishment, the DWP, mental health charities and even parts of the trade union movement that any work is good for you in any circumstances. This is not backed up by research, which shows some types of structured work can be good for you and some bad - and that the types of jobs usually available to claimants are the types of jobs which can be bad for mental health. Also research that shows work is good for your health may actually just be showing that poverty, the result of not working, is bad for your health. Despite this, it has become a deeply held belief that lies behind most of the tory and labour welfare reforms and has of course been cheered on by capital because it underpins the neo-liberal idea that unemployment is caused by unemployed people. It is also a justification for dismantling the welfare state, because if people wont work, even when its good for them, even when they've been forced to with sanctions, then even the most do gooding charity bosses thinks fuck them let them starve until they change their minds.

The same rhetoric is now starting to be used behind the scenes about pensioners as was used about disabled people - most pensoners want to work, working pensioners are healthier, work is good for you etc etc.

It's really imprtant people get this imo, behind all the whinging about scroungers are some much more insiduous ideas from people who just want to help us, Iain Duncan Smith is one of those, so is Rachel Reeves, organisations like MIND, the current TUC leadership, and of course the welfare-to-work industry who are making a lot of money out of this.

 

[treelover]

I don't know how you feel. You don't know how I feel, which is actually pretty rotten at times. I can be sitting at my desk feeling anxious, unable to concentrate, wondering what I'm doing there - very occasionally I pop a tiny bit of etizolam at work if the anxious feelings don't disappear after a reasonable time. If you don't want to go the doctor (because you don't want to go on meds and don't really want to discuss your deepest issues), struggling through and hoping things get better later in the day (feeling worse early in the morning is AFAIK one sign of depression) is all you can do. Many people who have MH issues aren't diagnosed, so don't assume I know nothing about it.

I'm with sparklefish, the DWP on past record shouldn't have anything to do with MH, its a Stalinist path govts are going down and it will end in tragedy.

 

[treelover]

Health Work & Wellbeing

Google it.

Removal of GPs role, NHS MH care only at point of access via IAPT and all beyond that via private health care/DWP program providers i.e. A4E/Ingus/ATOS/etc

You have been warning us on here about all this for a while and now its coming to fruition, I suspect it will also happen under a labour govt and it is something that is inevitable in a neo-liberal economy where work is a sacred duty and those who don't produce are seen as deviants. its also inevitable it will lead to more misery and suicides and in fifteen years time, the PM of the day will be in the chamber apologising to its victims.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I'm with sparklefish, the DWP on past record shouldn't have anything to do with MH, its a Stalinist path govts are going down and it will end in tragedy.

You're right - it would be better just put into the NHS. But I do think helping people towards work (as long as it is helping, and not a further detriment to their heath) and supporting them in work isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[free spirit]

That paper is worth fuck all if they're ready to jump into a coalition with the Tories at the first opportunity. In a political system with very little integrity to begin with, that was a new low. They paint themselves as a party of fairness but they're part of a government that has done so much damage to the most vulnerable people.
For the bedroom tax alone, they would never get my vote.
Dirty, lying cunts.

As someone who supported the lib dems at the last election.... I concur.

 

[Looby]

You're right - it would be better just put into the NHS. But I do think helping people towards work (as long as it is helping, and not a further detriment to their heath) and supporting them in work isn't necessarily a bad thing.

That isn't what will happen though, people will be bullied and sanctioned into work not supported and guided.

Any practitioners that willingly sign up to do this will be no better than the cunts that skipped off to ATOS and ruined people's lives.

 

[smokedout]

worth mentioning as well is how healthcare is increasingly becoming occupational health, such as with the new maximus run fit for work service which will certify sickness instead of GPs. as such healthcare becomes not about you, but about how much value you can/cannot provide for your employer. in this context mental health service is jobcentres is a logical conclusion, get back to work is the message, not get better

 

[Johnny Vodka]

That isn't what will happen though, people will be bullied and sanctioned into work not supported and guided.

Any practitioners that willingly sign up to do this will be no better than the cunts that skipped off to ATOS and ruined people's lives.

If that's the case, I'm totally in agreement with you. I suppose putting money into this sort of scheme also means young adults/pensioners/anyone not in the labour market are left out. If we've been deliberately mislead (I can't judge because I haven't looked beyond the headline until now), then that is pretty shit...

 

[superfly101]

You have been warning us on here about all this for a while and now its coming to fruition, I suspect it will also happen under a labour govt and it is something that is inevitable in a neo-liberal economy where work is a sacred duty and those who don't produce are seen as deviants. its also inevitable it will lead to more misery and suicides and in fifteen years time, the PM of the day will be in the chamber apologising to its victims.

Well you haven't listened really have you?

Take Lambeth Mental Health it had a 50% cut in funding in 2010 - this was followed by a 5% budget funding cut each year as well until 2015.

It's not for

Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens
Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens
Brown paper packages tied up with strings

Unum were invited to 2 out of 5 of the SSaC Medical advisory committee positions by Peter Lily in 1985.

 

[Looby]

If that's the case, I'm totally in agreement with you. I suppose putting money into this sort of scheme also means young adults/pensioners/anyone not in the labour market are left out. If we've been deliberately mislead (I can't judge because I haven't looked beyond the headline until now), then that is pretty shit...

You have heard about what's been going on with ATOS and disabled people? DWP sanctions? Suicides due to the bedroom tax and ATOS? If so, I'm not sure why you think this would be any different.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

You have heard about what's been going on with ATOS and disabled people? DWP sanctions? Suicides due to the bedroom tax and ATOS? If so, I'm not sure why you think this would be any different.

Yes, I'm aware of all that and think it's awful. I just haven't read any further into the policy on this and how it would work, but you're probably right.

 

[treelover]

Well you haven't listened really have you?

Take Lambeth Mental Health it had a 50% cut in funding in 2010 - this was followed by a 5% budget funding cut each year as well until 2015.

It's not for



Unum were invited to 2 out of 5 of the SSaC Medical advisory committee positions by Peter Lily in 1985.

Pardon? I was agreeing with you and acknowledging your prescience.

 

[superfly101]

Pardon? I was agreeing with you and acknowledging your prescience.

Sorry I'm a bit squiffed!