Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
a simple question eg what is truth doesn't mean it has a simple answer. i asked you a simple q you seem reluctant to answer. but elements of the mh system clearly disciplinafy, eg round sectioning
You know that 24 million for mental health care, it's not going to the NHS.
- Thread starter treelover
- Start date
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
I asked you a fairly specific question relating to government activity and policy which is a matter of public record, not an open-ended philosophical one. Stop bullshitting.
I asked you first. But in the vain hope of avoiding more pedantic hairsplitting shitfuckery from you, I'm wondering on what basis you think the NHS has a disciplinary role, as if that weren't blindingly obvious from the questions I was asking.
FInally, you give something approaching an actual answer. Now, please explain why being sectioned is a disciplinary matter, and not one of (perceived) safety for the person concerned or the general public at large. Because I can't find anything about punishment in the literature available on the internet.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
First, sectioning is normally only done when an individual is a danger to themselves and or others and inpatient treatment is needed without delay. I wouldn't describe it as a discipliniary more an urgent attempt to help someone in dire need of assistance.
Secondly mental health services urgently need more resources, there are not enough beds leading to people being shipped all over the country far away from their families and support networks, I have seen comment that this money is aimed at children's services, I don't know if children's services are particularly in greater need but it is my understanding that adults services are certainly also in crisis.
Secondly mental health services urgently need more resources, there are not enough beds leading to people being shipped all over the country far away from their families and support networks, I have seen comment that this money is aimed at children's services, I don't know if children's services are particularly in greater need but it is my understanding that adults services are certainly also in crisis.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Regardless of where the money is going, 25 million is an offensively tiny amount of money. Avoidable hospital admissions resulting from lack of mental health services must be costing a lot more than that.
http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2013...-mental-health-services-reach-crisis-point-2/
http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2013...-mental-health-services-reach-crisis-point-2/
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Good point SpookyFrank, 25m isn't going to do much, weren't they talking of more than a billion? I thought they were ..
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
While I share share treelover's suspicions about the DWP being allowed anywhere near mental health services, sectioning is clearly not something the DWP are going to be able to use as a punitive measure.
For one thing, the DWP are happiest when telling people who are ill that they're not really ill at all. I can't see them changing tack to the point where they'd start forcing people into hospital against their will, it would be completely out of character for them.
But the main problem with the idea of sectioning being used as a punitive measure is that the DWP would have no ability to do it. Last time I checked you needed two doctors and a senior social worker to have someone sectioned, and I don't think your average jobcentre has any doctors or social workers on staff.
For one thing, the DWP are happiest when telling people who are ill that they're not really ill at all. I can't see them changing tack to the point where they'd start forcing people into hospital against their will, it would be completely out of character for them.
But the main problem with the idea of sectioning being used as a punitive measure is that the DWP would have no ability to do it. Last time I checked you needed two doctors and a senior social worker to have someone sectioned, and I don't think your average jobcentre has any doctors or social workers on staff.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you have just said yourself the nhs has a disciplinary role - see your post 30 where you agree this programme is "likely" disciplinary. so why should i differ from you? and while i do not suggest that in every or even a majority of cases the power to section is used to discipline, to punish, as a power available to the police i would be surprised if it had never been used. however, you seem to believe disciplinary equals punitive: to which i do not subscribe. i would say that just as the educational system is disciplinary, inculcating a certain normality, so to is mental health.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
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NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
I said that it could be disciplinary on account of DWP involvement (which is key because that department is responsible for labour discipline). Not the same thing as whatever you're putting forward.
Any actual evidence that sectioning has been used in this way?
By that measure damn near anything could be "disciplinary", rendering the term vague to the point of uselessness. Punishment is integral to discipline.
There are punitive aspects to education (unless of course I'm misremembering all those times when I was punished for not doing my homework or conforming to expected norms), so yes there is a disciplinary element to education. Care to throw any more red herrings my way?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i never had you down as a pedantic fucker - or even shitfucker before. perhaps i've simply been unobservant. where did you pick up that unpleasant term from? i can't be the only person who feels ot has a most unpleasant set of connotations.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
This is pretty fucking rich coming from the Pedantmaster General himself. I'm done with you on this thread. Goodnight.
yet another important thread bites the dust because of one person..
btw, Spook, I never referred to sectioning, I meant claimants with MH issues could now face even more harassment and pressure at a time when they need, time, space, understanding and compassion, we are going backwards.
btw, Spook, I never referred to sectioning, I meant claimants with MH issues could now face even more harassment and pressure at a time when they need, time, space, understanding and compassion, we are going backwards.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
why do you do this? when evidence produced which undermines your claim why not say 'ok, it's an nhs programme?'
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
imo the one person's you, riding roughshod over the fscts of this measure. hell, the £24m of your title is £25m in your op. you use one source without further investigation, and the source you use a really rather partial one. your position seems to be that pointing out the facts ruins the thread.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
there is material about this on the internet, it's just your sesrch skills aren't all that.
andysays
Love and solidarity
This is the central point really, and it's also worth mentioning that by focussing solely on those who might be helped by getting back in to work or by a brief period of IAPT treatment, those of us with more complex and/or longer term mental health issues get ignored or forgotten, and nothing is done about the issue of limited access to assessment and treatment for more complex mental health issues.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Blimey, last night I posted the below and it registered as a double post, so I deleted one of them and this morning I see there is only one post and it is the one I deleted, how strange!
So: my post was:
Yes, I knew there were some other larger figures being bandied about, Nick Clegg said that he would spend 1.25bn more on mental health services if he was elected with 250m for children's services.
So not money that will be there, rather a promise contingent on the Lib Dems getting elected or perhaps being part of a coalition.
So: my post was:
Yes, I knew there were some other larger figures being bandied about, Nick Clegg said that he would spend 1.25bn more on mental health services if he was elected with 250m for children's services.
So not money that will be there, rather a promise contingent on the Lib Dems getting elected or perhaps being part of a coalition.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
if they manage to surmount the first hurdle...
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Of course you won't find punishment mentioned as a justification for sectioning. That doesn't mean that it isn't a feature in some cases, or that the threat of sectioning isn't used to regulate behaviour for some with borderline mental health issues. Bear in mind that the threat can be as good at the encouragement of patient self-regulation, as the actual action, and that it's not whether there's literature stating "sectioning can be punitive", it's about how patients (and others) perceive it that exerts an effect.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Unfortunately, a quarter of a billion pounds for child and adolescent mental health services would barely restore provision to what it was a decade ago. Letting CAMHS rot is one of the more despicable actions of the coalition, and one they shouldn't be forgiven for.
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
As someone who, yes, might actually vote Lib Dem again, I'm not going to rush to judgement on this. My anxious feelings can come to the fore at work, yet without work I'd almost definitely feel worse. Aiming to help people with mental health issues towards work isn't in itself a bad thing.
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
I think they're actually the best party on paper - and they haven't actually had the chance to rule alone. I'll either be voting for them or the Greens, unless some amazing new party comes into being between now and May.
Who do you think I should be voting for?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You're endorsing the established cut-back of 2000+ mental health beds by the lib-dems then. Do you think this was done out of concern for people with mental health issues?
Looby
Well-Known Member
That paper is worth fuck all if they're ready to jump into a coalition with the Tories at the first opportunity. In a political system with very little integrity to begin with, that was a new low. They paint themselves as a party of fairness but they're part of a government that has done so much damage to the most vulnerable people.
For the bedroom tax alone, they would never get my vote.
Dirty, lying cunts.
Vote for who you want, I just asked you why.
For the bedroom tax alone, they would never get my vote.
Dirty, lying cunts.
Vote for who you want, I just asked you why.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Aiming to help people with mental health issues who would actually benefit from some sort of work (which doesn't necessarily mean a job as normally understood, where hours and other aspects are dictated by an employer) isn't in itself a bad thing, but suggesting that everyone with mental health issues will benefit by being pushed into the sort of work which is generally available is damaging to many of those who have different needs, firstly because some will feel worse as a result of having to work, but also because the one-size-fits-all approach means there is now very little provision for more complex needs within the NHS.
This smacks of short-term electioneering by people who neither know nor care anything about the complexities of the range of needs of those of us with mental health issues which currently go untreated.
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
So name me the party with 100% integrity that you're going to vote for...
I can judge labour, I can judge the tories, but I'm not going to judge a party that looks good on paper and hasn't had the chance to rule on its own.
Looby
Well-Known Member
I can't, I think I already said that. They don't deserve the chance to rule on their own and I suspect they've shafted themselves so spectacularly, they'll never get one.
You're not going to judge a party that threw their policies out at the first chance they got to give them a seat round the table?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you know one definition of madness is doing exactly the same thing twice and expecting a different rrsult second time round?
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