Yes or No -AV referendum May 2011

[butchersapron]

They are knaves and charlatans for campaign for AV (and effectively against PR) - he's perfectly correct. And hating AV is not the same as fearing it - which was your claim.

And as i said earlier, i think you're underestimating the political sense of the electorate in those areas and their anger and sense of betrayal. Those votes are gone, even if they try and put on a left face - people can't be manipulated like that. That sort of pathetic attempt will only further drive people away from them.

 

[butchersapron]

thank god you said it's madness, the logic twists on this thread are making me chainchomp nurofen

Too many people wanting their cake and to eat it too...

 

[Santino]

No, no, I can see the sense. "I'll put Lib Dems first, in the knowledge that they are willing to go into government with the Tories, but I won't give the Tories my second preference, thus turning my vote into an anti-Tory vote."

 

[Quartz]

but who would the anti-tory vote be for? Monster Raving Loony? Their coalition partners, the LDs? WHO?

And under AV, wouldn't a vote for a party such as the MRL have much less effect than one under FPTP?

 

[articul8]

And under AV, wouldn't a vote for a party such as the MRL have much less effect than one under FPTP?

No.

 

[Pickman's model]

It would be for a party that is actually anti-Tory rather than for one that joins up with the Tories.

such as?

 

[Streathamite]

No, no, I can see the sense. "I'll put Lib Dems first, in the knowledge that they are willing to go into government with the Tories, but I won't give the Tories my second preference, thus turning my vote into an anti-Tory vote."

aarghh! you're making it worse! ohh my head....

 

[Streathamite]

Too many people wanting their cake and to eat it too...

god almighty do they ever! it's bloody Pangloss land..

 

[kabbes]

such as?

The list would go like this:

Tories
Liberal Democrats
Labour -- ??
Greens


And so on. It's up to you at that point. You'll work it out.

 

[butchersapron]

Did anyone go to this?

Electoral Reform: purple revolution or middle-class obsession?

Those advocating electoral reform have made much of the need to end ‘tribal’ voting habits, and of the benefits of coalition government. But does this call not reflect a distrust of both apparently irrational voters and strong government? Has the demand for electoral reform, once about the popular struggle of the masses demanding enfranchisement, been turned into a struggle against the people?

 

[Streathamite]

Ha that's true enough. But given that the YES campaign hasn't even started to go public yet it's not very indicative of anything much, apart from maybe that the NOs are peaking too early.

you still haven't given a convincing way round your biggest problem; for decades, the party most identified with electoral reform is the LDs, and come the vote the single biggest and most visible campaigning force will be the LibDems. except now - anything they campaign for is tarnished by association, as far as the mind of anyone with even vaguely left-leaning sympathies goes (and it's safe to say AV/PR/ER gets the vast majority of its' innate suport from that quarter - tories, by definition, suport the status quo). they're damaged goods. More, they'll damage your goods.
Catch 22

 

[butchersapron]

If he can't win round people on here they've no chance out in the wider world.

 

[articul8]

If he can't win round people on here they've no chance out in the wider world.

ha I don't think this little corner of the tinterweb is representative of very much - the election result hardly reflected the balance of opinion on here.

The point about the referendum is that is will help to determine the shape of electoral politics for the next few decades at least - not unreasonably the Tories want to keep the system that saw them dominate government in the last century. Is it really worth giving them what they want just so you get to disappoint a few Lib Dems along the way? You think it will fuck up the coalition? It won't. Nick Boles is right - if AV goes down then the LDs are with the Tories for the long haul.

 

[articul8]

Did anyone go to this?

no. Spiked contrarian bullshit versus deliberately shit speakers for reform.

 

[butchersapron]

If it passes they're there for ever - a majoritarian system that rewards the centre. Great. Talk about giving the neo-liberals exactly what want.

If you can't even win over left-wing supporters of electoral reform you are fucked. I think you know this, hence the repetitive desperation in the you love tories stuff you keep falling back on - whilst ignoring the benefits it'll provide to the same neo-liberal extremists on your side of the fence. You seem to not only be operating on outdated maps but have floated free from all political reality, insisting that black is white and so on. You're massively out of touch here.

 

[butchersapron]

no. Spiked contrarian bullshit versus deliberately shit speakers for reform.

Your mates turned up though to do their spiel. Still, a very apt title for the event.

 

[Streathamite]

ha I don't think this little corner of the tinterweb is representative of very much - the election result hardly reflected the balance of opinion on here.

The point about the referendum is that is will help to determine the shape of electoral politics for the next few decades at least - not unreasonably the Tories want to keep the system that saw them dominate government in the last century. Is it really worth giving them what they want just so you get to disappoint a few Lib Dems along the way? You think it will fuck up the coalition? It won't. Nick Boles is right - if AV goes down then the LDs are with the Tories for the long haul.

oh come off it that's practically moral fucking blackmail!
btw; I'm finding this, all of it, so headspinningly fucking convoluted - not just this thread, the whole bloody debate - that I haven't decided yet, which surprises me as I was/am a PR junkie for decades

 

[kyser_soze]

AV will be shit. It won't be a stepping stone to 'real' PR, it'll just bed in like FPTP and we'll have an even worse system pretending to be democractic.

Single nation constituency party lists, with seats being won every 67,000 votes. I realise this would make the idea of a local MP difficult, but I'm sure there are ways around it.

 

[articul8]

It is really quite simple - we get the choice between keeping the system that many of us have spent years complaining is shit, and get to replace it with one that offers some advantages. Not quite what we want but something worth having if that's what we can get. A NO vote would represent an endorsement of the current political system, and would lock in place the system that meant the 20th C was dominated by Tory governments. We can take what's on offer and demand more.

 

[articul8]

How is AV worse than FPTP?

 

[butchersapron]

Note the relentless we.

 

[kabbes]

Note the relentless we.

Sorry, it's all the coffee I've been drinking. Goes straight through me.

 

[butchersapron]

Almost 20 minutes i waited for that.

 

[Santino]

It is really quite simple - we get the choice between keeping the system that many of us have spent years complaining is shit, and get to replace it with one that offers some advantages. Not quite what we want but something worth having if that's what we can get. A NO vote would represent an endorsement of the current political system, and would lock in place the system that meant the 20th C was dominated by Tory governments. We can take what's on offer and demand more.

Is this the best you can do? 'Vote for AV or you look like you support FPTP'?

 

[butchersapron]

Very encouraging for the no voters.

 

[articul8]

i was tempted but resisted heroically

 

[articul8]

Very encouraging for the no voters.

You claim you want to end the knee-jerk reflex support for Labour. Yet a system that would allow people to vote for left, green, trade union or anti cuts candidates without making life easier for the coalition parties you oppose. Go figure.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Is this the best you can do? 'Vote for AV or you look like you support FPTP'?

Same argument that twat moon23 made on the "why the Lib-Dems are shit" thread ages ago. Crappy argument then, crappy argument now.

 

[butchersapron]

You claim you want to end the knee-jerk reflex support for Labour. Yet a system that would allow people to vote for left, green, trade union or anti cuts candidates without making life easier for the coalition parties you oppose. Go figure.

It would make no such difference - it would funnel votes to the 3 big parties. Caroline Lucas would probably not have been elected with her 31%.

Seriously, you need better arguments because these are a piece of piss to deal with.

 

[articul8]

You claim you want to end the knee-jerk reflex support for Labour. Yet a system that would allow people to vote for left, green, trade union or anti cuts candidates without making life easier for the coalition parties you oppose. Go figure.

if someone can convince me this isn't true then please do so...it'll save me a lot of wasted time and effort.