Yes/No to AV - Urban Votes

[Voley]

Dimbleby: 'Looking pretty dire for the Yes campaign'

 

[strung out]

What "NO to AV, YES to PR" campaign was that then?

This was a 'No to AV, YES to FPTP' campaign.... Yes to FPTP for bloody generations to come.

no it wasn't

 

[Andrew Hertford]

no it wasn't

Go on...

 

[strung out]

been done

 

[Andrew Hertford]

Anyone thinking that a vote for FPTP somehow puts us a step nearer to PR is living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

[MellySingsDoom]

Anyone thinking that a vote for FPTP somehow puts us a step nearer to PR is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Ditto for Yes to AV, also, I'd say.

 

[magneze]

Did you get a different poll card? There was no vote for FPTP.

 

[butchersapron]

Anyone thinking that a vote for FPTP somehow puts us a step nearer to PR is living in cloud cuckoo land.

I think i've asked you this before with no reply. Who is arguing that? I've not seen anyone argue that.

 

[binka]

^^^^What are the odds that these figures will be spun by Yes to AV that not enough people voted, so morally the (more than likely No) result doesn't count? "There wasn't a 50% voter threshold" etc.

i remember watching one of the debates on the parliament channel and it was the tories wanting a 50% voter turnout threshold for any yes vote to be valid, they didnt get it in the end so it would be quite bizarre for the yes to av to now make the same argument. although having said that they are lib dems so who knows

 

[ViolentPanda]

What "NO to AV, YES to PR" campaign was that then?

This was a 'No to AV, YES to FPTP' campaign.... Yes to FPTP for bloody generations to come.

Only if you're a lazy cunt who won't agitate for real change to the electoral system.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Anyone thinking that a vote for FPTP somehow puts us a step nearer to PR is living in cloud cuckoo land.

I don't recall seeing a "vote yes for FPTP" option on my ballot paper.

 

[ernestolynch]

Who gives a fuck about FPTP or AV or any of that wank - it was about sending Clegg to his grave, the cunt.

 

[editor]

Looks like it's going to be 70% for the No vote, thus sending Clegg's pointless pet project into fucking oblivion.

 

[ymu]

What "NO to AV, YES to PR" campaign was that then?

This was a 'No to AV, YES to FPTP' campaign.... Yes to FPTP for bloody generations to come.

How the fuck can you be so opinionated about something you are so fucking ignorant about? FFS! Do you think truth just flows from your brain if you just think about something for a while? No need for outside information - if you think it's true, it must be?

Hopes of replacing the first-past-the-post voting system with the alternative vote (AV) have received a blow as Lord Owen, one of the founders of the Social Democratic party that went on to form the Liberal Democrats with the Liberal party, helped found a group opposed to AV in favour of "real reform".

The "No to AV, Yes to PR" campaign was formally announced on Friday in the Guardian's letters page, with the support of Owen, his fellow crossbench peer Lord Skidelsky, and other eminent figures including the Bishop of Blackburn, Nicholas Reade.

It is designed to attract those disaffected by the decision of the longstanding supporters of proportional representation – such as the Liberal Democrats, Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust and the Electoral Reform Society – to back the Yes to AV campaign.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/mar/11/av-lord-owen-opposed-pr

 

[ymu]

I think i've asked you this before with no reply. Who is arguing that? I've not seen anyone argue that.

I have, several times. But I've more argued that it can't make it harder to get PR than a YESvote, and might make it easier. AV hands the big three hegemony, which is the main reason for thinking it will more likely block PR than promote it. The Australian experience supports this - they have AV and are more likely to switch to FPTP than PR in the future.

I posted a paper somewhere that looks at all of this in some detail. I'll dig out the link if you want it.

 

[claphamboy]

Looks like it's going to be 70% for the No vote, thus sending Clegg's pointless pet project into fucking oblivion.

And yet it's neck & neck on urban, interesting.

 

[Plumdaff]

I was "No to Av, Yes to PR" had been set up before last Friday, because I think a mass campaign to spoil your ballot with "PR" would have been pretty successful.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why are you so uninterested in the actual experience of AV elsewhere? I've given you an entire academic paper to peruse, and you're still coming here with uninformed bullshit based on propaganda materials and no actual evidence.

Fuck you ymu. I think for myself, thankyou. Citing the one and only seat a national small party has ever won – barring perhaps Galloway and Respect – as some kind of evidence of the goodness of the current system? Maybe you should have a look at the crap you're posting before accusing others of swallowing propaganda.

 

[stethoscope]

And yet it's neck & neck on urban, interesting.

I would say that is totally expectable. Urban voting above reflects a mostly left and left of centre vote, and a few on the right.

In general, the left/left of centre has been split over AV, whereas the right hasn't.

When you look at the public voting patterns, you're factoring in a massive Tory/right no vote, which you're not seeing on urban.

 

[frogwoman]

my grandma voted no.

 

[strung out]

lambeth returns a yes vote for AV! explains the result of this poll.

 

[ymu]

Fuck you ymu. I think for myself, thankyou. Citing the one and only seat a national small party has ever won – barring perhaps Galloway and Respect – as some kind of evidence of the goodness of the current system? Maybe you should have a look at the crap you're posting before accusing others of swallowing propaganda.

You think for yourself, and truth flows out from your brain without the need for reality checks?

Never had you down for an anti-empiricist. There's heaps of evidence on AV out there, and you're only interested in defending your original gullibility?

How long did it take you to regret voting Lib Dem?

 

[stethoscope]

lambeth returns a yes vote for AV! explains the result of this poll.

Always knew Lambeth ends were wrong-uns.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Never had you down for an anti-empiricist. There's heaps of evidence on AV out there, and you're only interested in defending your original gullibility?

You're being a prick, you know that. Don't read things into my posts that aren't there, please. And show me some evidence that AV squeezes smaller parties more effectively than the current version of fptp.

 

[ymu]

You're being a prick, you know that. Don't read things into my posts that aren't there, please. And show me some evidence that AV squeezes smaller parties more effectively than the current version of fptp.

I posted it ages ago. Several times, with an academic paper reviewing the evidence on precisely the argument we're having.

You chose to ignore it. Not my problem.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

How the fuck can you be so opinionated about something you are so fucking ignorant about? FFS! Do you think truth just flows from your brain if you just think about something for a while? No need for outside information - if you think it's true, it must be?

I didn't say there wasn't a campaign, I asked what it was.

Hardly very effective in getting it across though, apart from one or two on here I haven't heard the idea of moving towards PR by voting no mentioned anywhere else.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

can't find anything... on the BBC very odd look like the yes av been beaten...

 

[Andrew Hertford]

Ditto for Yes to AV, also, I'd say.

Agreed, but for what it's worth there might have been a chance of the issue being revisited again in the future if we had changed the system and the right wing media campaigned to bring back FPTP.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

Only if you're a lazy cunt who won't agitate for real change to the electoral system.

How would you go about that?

And that's a serious question VP.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

I think i've asked you this before with no reply. Who is arguing that? I've not seen anyone argue that.

You haven't been looking very hard then have you. Do you want me to grass them all up?