Wonky 18th century pub, The Crooked House, mysteriously burns to the ground after new owners take over

[SpookyFrank]

They are either extremely stupid (as it is obvious what has happened here) or they know that this sort of thing can be gotten away with, with very little risk.

If the owners burnt the place down, then knocking the whole thing down rules out finding any proof of arson, replacing a criminal charge with a possible council enforcement issue.

And it would only be some patsy that actually did the burning, just as it seems to be some patsy who owns the company that bought the building.

Police should have had the place cordoned off as a crime scene. But if there are organised crime types involved then they'll have filth on payroll.

It's all so fucking blatant that they must have known they'd get away with it.

 

[editor]

If the owners burnt the place down, then knocking the whole thing down rules out finding any proof of arson, replacing a criminal charge with a possible council enforcement issue.

And it would only be some patsy that actually did the burning, just as it seems to be some patsy who owns the company that bought the building.

Police should have had the place cordoned off as a crime scene. But if there are organised crime types involved then they'll have filth on payroll.

It's all so fucking blatant that they must have known they'd get away with it.

Wouldn't it be absolutely awful if whatever they build on the land also gets burnt down in a mysterious fire when there's no one there?

 

[Spymaster]

It does happen sometimes tho

Rising from the rubble: London pub rebuilt brick by brick after illegal bulldozing

Carlton Tavern reopens six years after planning ruling that campaigners hope will prevent developers demolishing other sites

www.theguardian.com

That was a bit different.

With The Carlton, the developers blatently put a digger through half of the building, so the fact they'd done it on purpose was completely undeniable and traceable.

With this one it looks like they'll claim it was an accidental fire and they cleared it up swiftly for safety. The whole world might disbelieve them but without proof they'll likely get away with it.

 

[Wilf]

If the owners burnt the place down, then knocking the whole thing down rules out finding any proof of arson, replacing a criminal charge with a possible council enforcement issue.

And it would only be some patsy that actually did the burning, just as it seems to be some patsy who owns the company that bought the building.

Police should have had the place cordoned off as a crime scene. But if there are organised crime types involved then they'll have filth on payroll.

It's all so fucking blatant that they must have known they'd get away with it.

They are either very stupid or must think the land has a massive resale value. Their difficulty will now be getting any change of use agreed for themselves to develop. The real issue will be how far the council want to push this long term.

 

[editor]

Just signed the petition:

The historic former public house the Glynne Arms known as the "Crooked House" a building of major historical significance burned on the night of the 5th August not long after public calls for it to be saved from developers.

Fire services were prevented from reaching the building by obstacles being placed in the access road and saving the historic building, then it was swiftly demolished.

An open public inquiry must be held into the burning and destruction of this remarkable building.

The loss of this building is a major blow to the historical heritage of the Black Country a building which had national and international renown.

Sign the Petition

A proper inquiry into the burning of the historic "crooked house"

www.change.org

 

[Lord Camomile]

In terms of finding evidence, leaving aside linking it to specific people, I was always under the impression it was relatively straightforward for firefighters to at least establish whether a fire was started deliberately or not?

Have I just fallen for emergency services propaganda again?

<edit: just realised I wasn't looking at the last page and have caught up with further comments >

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I read that the issue was the shared access with the pub. Seems a bit OTT just to get full rights to the lane unless the quarry/landfill is a real money spinner and I suppose they could sell the land off later.

 

[belboid]

That was a bit different.

With The Carlton, the developers blatently put a digger through half of the building, so the fact they'd done it on purpose was completely undeniable and traceable.

With this one it looks like they'll claim it was an accidental fire and they cleared it up swiftly for safety. The whole world might disbelieve them but without proof they'll likely get away with it.

Deliberate ignoring of direct instructions tho. Wanton destruction of a potential crime scene. And it's ultimately a council decision, not a courts, somewhat different burden of proof.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm not sure if they ignored any instructions and if it was a potential crime scene the police should have treated it as such and preserved it. What seems to have happened was that it was "handed back into the care of the owners". But yes, the council planning inspectors would be the ones to order any rebuild. However, there's quite a large evidential gap between this case and that of The Carlton Tavern. As I recall, the Carlton developers didn't even deny knocking it over.

 

[Wilf]

Deliberate ignoring of direct instructions tho. Wanton destruction of a potential crime scene. And it's ultimately a council decision, not a courts, somewhat different burden of proof.

It's all surmise at this stage, but the council sounded a tad defensive as to what they'd told the owners on site. Certainly didn't tell them to pull the whole structure down immediately, but .maybe gave them a bit of wriggle room.

 

[WouldBe]

With this one it looks like they'll claim it was an accidental fire and they cleared it up swiftly for safety. The whole world might disbelieve them but without proof they'll likely get away with it.

Except the council had already told them there was only 3 small bits if wall on the first floor that needed demolishing to make the building safe.

 

[Spymaster]

Except the council had already told them there was only 3 small bits if wall on the first floor that needed demolishing to make the building safe.

Did they tell them not to demolish any more than that?

 

[marty21]

It does happen sometimes tho

Rising from the rubble: London pub rebuilt brick by brick after illegal bulldozing

Carlton Tavern reopens six years after planning ruling that campaigners hope will prevent developers demolishing other sites

www.theguardian.com

Hackney pub The Chesham Arms to reopen after legal battle

A 150-year-old pub is set to reopen after campaigners secure a lease to refurbish and reopen the building.

www.bbc.com

And when unscrupulous developers try to change the use of a well established pub

 

[Wilf]

Did they tell them not to demolish any more than that?

And short of finding the arsonist, the whole thing might revolve around this.

 

[Wilf]

And short of finding the arsonist, the whole thing might revolve around this.

... even whether the council had time to put their instructions in writing.

 

[mr steev]

Local MPs and others and others making a modest stink about this, well we are a few months away from an election. However, medium term, wouldn't surprise me if the land gets sold on and then it's houses or retail on the site within 5 years. The new owners maybe even promise to have a (but not the) pub on the site. Whatever happens, the pub ain't getting rebuilt.

The land is riddled with very old mines. A lot of them unmapped. That's why the original building sank in the first place. I know property developers don't seem to mind building on flood planes etc. but I would've thought there would need to be a hell of a lot of work before housing could be built on the site.

The council are pissed off though, as it seems they've gone against their instructions rather than acting swifly enough and demolishing it before they had chance to say anything, and there are noises about legal action.

The pub had already died sadly (you could argue that the blame for that lies with Marstons), but you're right. The building has gone for ever now too. It would be a nightmare to rebuild as it was already propped up and the Black Country Museum have stated they're not in a position to have it - unlike the elephant & Castle close by in Wolverhampton, which literally was knocked down overnight a few years ago and has since been rebuilt there.

The only hope now is that this causes enough of an outcry for laws to be tightened to stop developers doing it again to another historic building.

 

[WouldBe]

Just been on BBC news police are treating it as arson.

 

[two sheds]

Staffordshire police treating fire at Crooked House pub as arson

Fire at famous pub nine days after it was sold to new owners sparked outrage and calls for it to be rebuilt

www.theguardian.com

Yes let's hope eh ...

 

[moochedit]

Won't post link but the daily mail has found the owner. Wife of owner of landfill site that is near pub and shared an access road with it.

 

[Indeliblelink]

Reminds me about the Montreal Arms in Brighton.
Pub closed in pandemic, property developer purchased it then started chipping the historic green tiles off before he had planning permission, it was reported to council who hastily told the workmen to stop what they were doing at once. He's now been ordered to replace them at huge cost.

Montreal Arms tile decision welcomed

Neighbours and politicians have welcomed the news that the owner of a Brighton pub must restore the green tiles that

www.brightonandhovenews.org

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Won't post link but the daily mail has found the owner. Wife of owner of landfill site that is near pub and shared an access road with it.

Owner was named by the Guardian yesterday. Sounds like scum:

‘It’s gobsmacking’: locals demand answers to demolition of Crooked House pub

‘Wonkiest pub in Britain’ caught fire after being sold, before being demolished without South Staffordshire council consent

www.theguardian.com

 

[cupid_stunt]

Owner was named by the Guardian yesterday. Sounds like scum:

‘It’s gobsmacking’: locals demand answers to demolition of Crooked House pub

‘Wonkiest pub in Britain’ caught fire after being sold, before being demolished without South Staffordshire council consent

www.theguardian.com

There is a mystery surrounding the fire and subsequent demolition of the pub just two weeks after it was sold to a private company.

There is no mystery here.

 

[moochedit]

Owner was named by the Guardian yesterday. Sounds like scum:

‘It’s gobsmacking’: locals demand answers to demolition of Crooked House pub

‘Wonkiest pub in Britain’ caught fire after being sold, before being demolished without South Staffordshire council consent

www.theguardian.com

And the mirror..

Cops to question couple who bought UK's wonkiest pub just before it burned down

The beloved Crooked House pub was severely damaged - and since razed to the ground - following a fire on Saturday night, and the couple who bought it last month will now be questioned by police

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[moochedit]

Think there was a social club that burned down near me last year. Can't remember the full story.

 

[bluescreen]

I have no idea why Steve Bray is fingering a totally innocent Tory MP

https://members.parliament.uk/member/4789/contact

 

[xenon]

All perfectly normal. Landmark historic buildings always go on fire when developers have their eye on them. It’s a well-known phenomenon. Hotels, pubs etc. developer induced spontaneous combustion.

 

[belboid]

All perfectly normal. Landmark historic buildings always go on fire when developers have their eye on them. It’s a well-known phenomenon. Hotels, pubs etc. developer induced spontaneous combustion.

You'd have thought they'd insure against it.

 

[two sheds]

You'd have thought they'd insure against it.

Then arson and fraud

 

[platinumsage]

Makes sense now, the ineptitude of it. They're not hard-nosed property speculators cunningly lining up some new investment land, this is more like the sort of neighbour dispute over a shared driveway that ends up in court and the DailyMail with e.g. one of them going out with a chainsaw and slicing up the new fence that other lot put up. I bet they celebrated, finally getting rid of Marstons and clearing the pesky pub out the way for their landfill quarry bollocks or whatever.

 

[platinumsage]

I don't see any point in rebuilding it brick by brick. The whole charm of it was that the building had slumped naturally but had not collapsed and was still standing. A rebuild will just be a heavily engineered model of the actual thing. Jail time and company director disqualification are the best we can hope for I think, and maybe a confiscation order although I'm not sure about that. Hopefully HE will be pushed to sort out their listing process too.