Will you vote for independence?

[butchersapron]

Could you stop attacking posters on this thread?

Just...engage. This is important to a lot of people here. No-one here is interested in personal stuff, we're talking about something massive, something that changes things here.

There's no person so low or high that they should make a difference to what this is about.

You have your opinions and your way of expressing them...but your 'side' of things has been losing ground year after year after year.

At some point you have to start wondering if you're part of the problem, no?

Now...I know that particular post was not a prime example of what I mean but you know what I'm saying. Just consider it.

This can't be won by divisiveness. It's not about contrariness or me v you or us v them or this v that.

We want the (re-)creation of a nation.

A nation.

I haven't attacked anyone on this this thread. If your speech is directed at things that didn't happen then speechify away. This thread i've pointed to info/polls/reports and debated them. That's it. Don't bring your nonsense into it.

 

[DexterTCN]

Anyway...back on topic.

I may do another speech later. I have Tyskie.

 

[gosub]

Draft constitution published

 

[Quartz]

Unless I missed it there's no mention of requiring a general election in the draft constitution itself. They say later there'll be an election in 2016, but there's no written commitment. The current SMPs could be in power in perpetuity. I think hard term limits should be laid down. There needs to be some check on them. Or does Section 34 cover this? And they say that they'll use the current PR system (I'm guessing Section 34 may also apply here). I'm really not happy with that. It's not that I dislike the system (which I do - I prefer Approval Voting) but that the document should say that the electoral system should be proposed by the Scottish Parliament and ratified by a popular vote.

I also find it interesting that they're not applying ius solis for those born after the referendum.

Then there's the nuclear issue. Okay, I'm in the minority WRT nuclear as a whole, but it's not necessary to put a ban on nuclear weapons in the constitution - Scotland might change its mind in 5 or 20 or 50 or 100 years. Let it be an Act.

 

[butchersapron]

Seriously, you think they've written a Constitution that doesn't include elections? That says that currently elected candidates are there forever? And how do interim arrangements work with perpetuity?

 

[Quartz]

Seriously, you think they've written a Constitution that doesn't include elections?

It's clear that you've not actually read the thing.

 

[butchersapron]

It's clear that you've not actually read the thing.

Whether i have or not doesn't effect what you said. Look up what interim means. Look up what perpetuity means.

This is not to mention your confusion between a constitution (that is the rules by which politics is carried out) and political positions i.e opposition to nuclear power or other political choices.

 

[danny la rouge]

Unless I missed it there's no mention of requiring a general election in the draft constitution itself. They say later there'll be an election in 2016, but there's no written commitment. The current SMPs could be in power in perpetuity. I think hard term limits should be laid down. There needs to be some check on them. Or does Section 34 cover this? And they say that they'll use the current PR system (I'm guessing Section 34 may also apply here). I'm really not happy with that. It's not that I dislike the system (which I do - I prefer Approval Voting) but that the document should say that the electoral system should be proposed by the Scottish Parliament and ratified by a popular vote.

I also find it interesting that they're not applying ius solis for those born after the referendum.

Then there's the nuclear issue. Okay, I'm in the minority WRT nuclear as a whole, but it's not necessary to put a ban on nuclear weapons in the constitution - Scotland might change its mind in 5 or 20 or 50 or 100 years. Let it be an Act.

You missed it.

I wasn't going to comment on the draft constitution until I've had a chance to read it all properly, but you should keep in mind Quartz, several things:

1. This is a consultation. You can send your comments if you think there are omissions.
2. The Bill is a Draft.
3. The Constitution contained therein is interim.
4. Even the interim Constitution still needs to be passed by parliament.
5. There is provision in the draft Bill for an independent Convention to prepare the permanent Constitution.

Your concerns about general elections are answered in several places in the Bill, and copiously so.

7 Form of State and Government.
7:2 The form of government in Scotland is a parliamentary democracy.​

And before that:

2 Sovereignty of the people
In Scotland, the people are sovereign.

3 The nature of the people’s sovereignty

(1) In Scotland, the people have the sovereign right to self-determination and to choose
freely the form in which their State is to be constituted and how they are to be governed.

(2) All State power and authority accordingly derives from, and is subject to, the sovereign
will of the people, and those exercising State power and authority are accountable for it
to the people.​

Then:

12 State accountability to the people
(1) The Scottish Parliament and its members, as the elected representatives of the people,
are accountable to the people.
(2) The Scottish Government and its members are accountable to the Scottish Parliament
and, through the Parliament as their elected representatives, to the people.​

Then:

27 References to the European Convention on Human Rights
(1) The references in section 26 to the rights and fundamental freedoms set out in the
European Convention on Human Rights are to the rights and fundamental freedoms set
out in—
(a) Articles 2 to 12 and 14 of the Convention,
(b) Articles 1 to 3 of the First Protocol to the Convention, agreed at Paris on 20
March 1952,​

Article 3 of the First Protocol of the ECHR is the Right to Free Elections ("The High Contracting Parties undertake to hold free elections at reasonable intervals by secret ballot, under conditions which will ensure the free expression of the opinion of the people in the choice of the legislature").

 

[danny la rouge]

This is not to mention your confusion between a constitution (that is the rules by which politics is carried out) and political positions i.e opposition to nuclear power or other political choices.

Although that's a reasonable distinction to make, the SNP promised to make ridding Scotland of nuclear weapons a constitutional matter. And the Draft Bill contains provision for that (23 a and b).

(With the caveat that it's a Draft, it's open to Consultation, and requires to be ratified by parliament).

 

[danny la rouge]

So, although the interim constitution sets Scotland out as a "Constitutional Monarchy", 3 (1) clearly sets out the possibility of it becoming a republic, perhaps after a referendum, perhaps as a result of the Constitutional Convention.

9 Head of State
(3) Her Majesty, and Her successors to the Crown, continue to enjoy all the rights, powers
and privileges which, according to law, attached to the Crown in Scotland immediately
before Independence Day.​

(4) Subsection (3) is subject to—
(a) the constitution, and
(b) provision made by Act of the Scottish Parliament.
​

Taken together with:

3 The nature of the people’s sovereignty
(3) The sovereign will of the people is expressed in the constitution and, in accordance with
the constitution and laws made under it, through the people’s elected representatives, at
referendums and by other means provided by law.​

 

[Quartz]

You missed it.

No, I didn't miss it - there is indeed no explicit mention; I just didn't make the link. Thanks.

1. This is a consultation. You can send your comments if you think there are omissions.

Oh, I will.

Article 3 of the First Protocol of the ECHR is the Right to Free Elections ("The High Contracting Parties undertake to hold free elections at reasonable intervals by secret ballot, under conditions which will ensure the free expression of the opinion of the people in the choice of the legislature").

And what exactly constitutes a reasonable interval? 5 years? 7 years? 11? Note also that there's no commitment to have the proper constitution settled by the time of any election.

 

[danny la rouge]

And what exactly constitutes a reasonable interval? 5 years? 7 years? 11?

It isn't specified, but in signatory states it's normally 5 years.

Until 2011, the UK didn't have fixed election terms. Most democratic systems don't, although the vast majority have maximum term lengths for their main legislative body, (or lower house). Of those, the most common is 5 years, and only one (Yemen) is 6 years, which is the highest.

The shortest is the United States, who have elections every 2 years for the House of Representatives. However, they have an executive presidency, so their system is somewhat different to ours.

(Irish presidents are elected every 7 years, but it is a non executive post).

A "reasonable interval" for elections to a main legislative chamber is therefore not more than 6 years, preferably 5.

Note also that there's no commitment to have the proper constitution settled by the time of any election.

Indeed. The provision is the opposite: the first election (set for 5th May 2016 in the White Paper, adopted by 67 votes to 54 in the Scottish Parliament) needs to happen before the Convention is set up.

Section 33 for the Draft Bill provides that the first independent Scottish Parliament elected in May 2016 must, by primary legislation, establish a Constitutional Convention to draw up a permanent written constitution. And this should happen "as soon as possible after Independence Day" (24 March 2016).

 

[DairyQueen]

It's clear that you've not actually read the thing.

Quartz, I have read the constitution. In the document they make clear when an independent commission will prepare the constitution and the Bill they propose is an interim document. The entire constitution states that the people are sovereign and that is the basis for all political power (if you don't know what that means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_sovereignty) . It states explicitly that Scotland will be a parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy.

The UK has no such document. Yet, you have not mentioned this at all for some reason. Seriously, raise genuine arguments that can be debated, stop just fabricating vacuous arguments that are impossible to engage with.

There is serious debates to be had... better together are claiming 40% of income tax will be devolved (but have not explained why only 40%), and Brown has now suggested scrapping the entire Scottish education system.

 

[DairyQueen]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...ok-threat-to-yes-scotland-campaigner.24461959

 

[danny la rouge]

Quartz, I have read the constitution. In the document they make clear when an independent commission will prepare the constitution and the Bill they propose is an interim document. The entire constitution states that the people are sovereign and that is the basis for all political power (if you don't know what that means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_sovereignty) . It states explicitly that Scotland will be a parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy.

The UK has no such document. Yet, you have not mentioned this at all for some reason. Seriously, raise genuine arguments that can be debated, stop just fabricating vacuous arguments that are impossible to engage with.

There is serious debates to be had... better together are claiming 40% of income tax will be devolved (but have not explained why only 40%), and Brown has now suggested scrapping the entire Scottish education system.

And Andy Burnham has said that the NHS in Scotland shouldn't be completely devolved; he wants Westminster to have the power to ensure health policies are "consistent across England, Scotland & Wales". Which, unless you want the NHS privatised, is exactly what we don't want.

 

[Quartz]

The UK has no such document. Yet, you have not mentioned this at all for some reason.

Red herring alert!

 

[danny la rouge]

Some commentary on the draft interim Constitution from Elliot Bulmer in the Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...h-constitution-popular-sovereignty-democratic

 

[DexterTCN]

Thought that was quite nice.

 

[Quartz]

Thought that was quite nice.

That's an utterly brilliant retort by the pupil.

 

[weepiper]

It's the killer answer.

 

[DairyQueen]

Red herring alert!

You are complaining about the fact that the exact day of each election is not made in advance in an interim constitution. You think the fact the UK has no constitution is a red herring. You have no hope Quartz.

 

[gosub]

number crunching by the radio 4 stats program

 

[Fedayn]

Thought that was quite nice.

Apparently it was a friend of mines daughter who said it.

 

[Poi E]

That is wonderful.

 

[butchersapron]

There's an obvious answer to crush the child - why would you want to produce foreigners? To make foreigners of people who aren't?

 

[Poi E]

There are a lot of foreigners on the planet, to be sure.

 

[DexterTCN]

 

[danny la rouge]

There's an obvious answer to crush the child - why would you want to produce foreigners? To make foreigners of people who aren't?

That only brings you back to "what's wrong with foreigners?"

 

[DexterTCN]

foreigners want to know what love is

 

[butchersapron]

That only brings you back to "what's wrong with foreigners?"

So why are you making them foreigners child? Everyone a foreigner - is this the world you want to live in child?