Why Labour are Scum

[Humberto]

I see them taking apart the NHS piece by piece, sanctioning JSA claimants for bugger all, promoting workfare, creating more obstacles to ESA claims. Basically intensifying the agenda they have already been following. Why are they following this agenda if it is what protects them?

 

[treelover]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/10/labour-party-fundraiser-500-thousand-antony-gormley

The Art World seems to like Labour.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

It's been neo liberalism for the past forty years and they have always hated us. I don't think they've forgotten these agreements entirely I think it's they want to strip back as much as they can get away with, they're literally seeing how much they can get away with and there's been varying degrees of success in combating it varying from country to country.

They are certainly the class doing the most class war and they're very open about that. I think the agenda is being followed because of precisely what I said. They don't wanna spend any money on stupid things like social security, they want social security for them and not their workers and they're getting it by the wheel barrow full. The struggle now is the same as it's always been only our side, in this country at least, is doing a pretty crappy job of fighting back precisely because of 'oh just vote labour because it won't be as bad' type attitudes. Elsewhere the situation is a bit better. I know nothing about that party in Spain but it seems pretty good, particularly if they've managed to get that far in such a short space of time. I just don't think any change will come via the ballot box. I don't wanna see violence but I do wanna see some serious direct action because that's the only thing that's been proven to do anything in the past.

 

[DotCommunist]

Encouraging

I know nothing about that party in Spain but it seems pretty good, particularly if they've managed to get that far in such a short space of time.

http://hiredknaves.wordpress.com/2014/01/20/podemos-translated-manifesto/

(from the Spanish Politics Thread). Looks encouraging to me- light years away from whats on the table here.

 

[Humberto]

But its only pennies to them. Its not rational it seems. You only have to talk to a few right wingers to know they are cracked and hate to see anyone HELPED.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Encouraging

http://hiredknaves.wordpress.com/2014/01/20/podemos-translated-manifesto/

(from the Spanish Politics Thread). Looks encouraging to me- light years away from whats on the table here.

That's now the second most popular party in Spain? I would certainly vote for that. That is indeed light years away from anything here.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

But its only pennies to them. Its not rational it seems. You only have to talk to a few right wingers to know they are cracked and hate to see anyone HELPED.

Only because they've been propagandised for decades. It's perfectly rational. Social security is a necessary evil, they hate providing it but know they have to, unless of course they can successfully drill into people's heads that there is no alternative to neo liberalism so just resign yourself to it. They've had a bloody good go at it but even after years, hundreds of years in fact as the same arguments now were used in the 19th century, but they just can't quite get the job done because you can't overcome that central plank of human nature, the one that says 'social creature' on it.

 

[DotCommunist]

That's now the second most popular party in Spain? I would certainly vote for that. That is indeed light years away from anything here.

Favelado or one of the other spanishy based urbs could tell you better but it looks like they are going for the crown of the proper opposition in an altogether too cosy 2-party system. And the ETA-loving terrorist friends etc smears are already ther. Take a look at the spanish politics thread for more, it's certainly food for thought.

 

[Humberto]

They went the other way and admitted their economic system requires unemployment, and that we should then resent those unemployed for being a wasteful expense.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Have faith in Ed Balls. He can't even work Twitter for fuck sake, and you're asking us to campaign for him to be chancellor.

No I'm asking you to kick out this government.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Last month
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27911518
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26506522



So the Tories don't pay them, Labour will pay 'them'.

If I'm going to be forced to work at least being paid is better.

Granted its a shitty deal, but again give me an alternative?

 

[J Ed]

You are seriously comparing the political possibilities in Essex and Tunbridge wells with the Arab spring ?

Ha, ha mentalist

Getting more than a lil bit of racism and ableism from this here, comrade.

 

[butchersapron]

No I'm asking you to kick out this government.

God, how many times must we do this with you? Ok, step by step.

1. You say "I'm asking you to kick out this government". Kicking this govt out for you is a strictly electoral action and has only one component - voting labour - all other options being for you the functional equivalent of voting tory (this point is never established btw)

2. The vast majority of people in the country - including you - live in seats where the way in which they vote makes no difference to the outcome. Around 70% of seats never change hands. The only votes that count are those concentrated in marginal swing seats - some informed estimates have suggested these people may number as few as 8000 people nationally.

3. Therefore you are demanding a course of action that for most people is utterly meaningless and ineffectual in terms of achieving what you claim people must work towards.

4. What's worse is that whilst you're doing this you're moving into a) closing down any anti-neoliberal politics that doesn't go along with your aims and methods and b) defending labour policy.

 

[articul8]

Do you believe it is matter of total indifference whether the Tories are returned to power?

 

[butchersapron]

Do you see any problems in the logic of wells?

Does it matter how i see it? I'm not going to effect the outcome. Nor are you.

 

[DairyQueen]

If I'm going to be forced to work at least being paid is better.

Granted its a shitty deal, but again give me an alternative?

Labour's solution to the Tories policy of forced labour will be to subsidise large multinational companies. That is depressing.

 

[DairyQueen]

Do you believe it is matter of total indifference whether the Tories are returned to power?

They are not going to reverse anything though. So, there is a bit of me that thinks: Tory neo-cons will sell off everything sooner or later, Labour might or might not postpone that for a few years.

 

[Pickman's model]

If the tories are returned i'll leave the UK by taking a running jump off the cliffs of Dover.

i hope this isn't one of those promises that will be forgotten after the general election.

 

[butchersapron]

Do you believe it is matter of total indifference whether the Tories are returned to power?

Can you reformulate this question so that it means that wanting to get rid of a tory govt necessarily means voting labour please. Then make sure to insinuate that if you don't want a labour govt then you support the tory method of cuts and attacks on the poorest and so on. (Then send wells a sign up form). Or, at least admit that was the intent behind the phrasing that you chose to employ.

 

[Awesome Wells]

They are not going to reverse anything though. So, there is a bit of me that thinks: Tory neo-cons will sell off everything sooner or later, Labour might or might not postpone that for a few years.

So Labour are a better choice right now.

 

[butchersapron]

So Labour are a better choice right now.

It doesn't matter if they are better or worse when your vote has no effect whatsoever.

 

[Favelado]

So Labour are a better choice right now.

Lethal injection is better than public stoning too.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Lethal injection is better than public stoning too.

If those were the only choices, in whatever grisly situation you are fantasising, then yes. I think i'd rather have a quick injection than be smashed to death by rocks.

Your fantasy, not mine

 

[Favelado]

If those were the only choices, in whatever grisly situation you are fantasising, then yes. I think i'd rather have a quick injection than be smashed to death by rocks.

You wouldn't even appeal against the sentence, that's the sad thing.

 

[Awesome Wells]

You wouldn't even appeal against the sentence, that's the sad thing.

Supposition.

 

[articul8]

They are not going to reverse anything though. So, there is a bit of me that thinks: Tory neo-cons will sell off everything sooner or later, Labour might or might not postpone that for a few years.

Even if this were the case it would by that logic be desirable to have labour in? The stronger claim that electing Labour is a way, or worse still the only way, of stopping or reversing the attacks on workers is clearly untenable. But still, where there's an opportunity to punish the Tories and LDs by voting Labour, then it's worth doing, no?

 

[articul8]

Do you see any problems in the logic of wells?

Does it matter how i see it? I'm not going to effect the outcome. Nor are you.

Actually, I might - very marginally - since I happen to live in a marginal. I think Wells might be overplaying his case, but there's a rational kernel there that his critics haven't been able to undermine.

 

[Pickman's model]

Lethal injection is better than public stoning too.

not from the pov of the spectators

 

[Lo Siento.]

Im not aware its ever been tried,

It has been tried, it is being tried, here and all over the world.

If people followed advice of posters we would have a permanent Tory govt.

That's how irrational their politics are.

That's what we have now.

 

[butchersapron]

Actually, I might - very marginally - since I happen to live in a marginal. I think Wells might be overplaying his case, but there's a rational kernel there that his critics haven't been able to undermine.

Or, what you mean is that there is part of it that you agree with - and you should being a paid up labour party member - but that this part has been undermined on here to pretty much everyone's satisfaction apart from you two. What is this rational kernel that you think wells is unable to express adequately but that you can grasp? is it the shock news that tories are bad and labour may be better - of course this is the case, and it's why they will win the next election. But to build these other idiocies on top of this (and to ignore all the other stuff this position needs to cut out of its analysis) is well...idiotic. I can see why you warm to his position despite being able to see through the gaps in his logic and presentation - it's because he's basically expressing a far cruder version of what you've been peddling on here since you saw the light - but despite the crude form the content is substantively similar.