Why Conspiracy Theorists are so prevalent.

[frogwoman]

He's been posting here 10 years fw - in that time all he's learnt is to hide the wilder stuff he believes in. He's been walked through this time after time. He's not going to change now.

yeah, you're probably right.

we've been through this loads of fucking times with him

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

it's not just the dog whistle phrases though

why do you need to talk about banking dynasties, do you really think the "dynasty" makes a difference? what is the difference between the capital that comes out a "dynasty" and other finance capital or other capital in general? And why is it ONLY about banks what about other types of businesses - do you not think they have a role in this as well?

Just going to answer this for now, off out in a tick.

I think the dynasty does make a difference, yes. Nepotism and general keeping in the family very much sets things more in stone, more impervious to outside influence. And it's finance institutions (not just banks, but hedge funds) stand out because they are the ones who have been doing all the derivatives shite and a host of other stuff that isn't even based around production. Though it ultimately draws on labour and resources at some point when it is "cashed in", it is "fiction upon fiction".

It's been put to me that to so distinctly differentiate finance from industrial capital in such critique is "bourgeois" but I don't accept that, because the importance and nature of finance capital has grown/changed so much in the last generation in a way which can't be said of industrial capital.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

He's been posting here 10 years fw - in that time all he's learnt is to hide the wilder stuff he believes in. He's been walked through this time after time. He's not going to change now.

I'm interested in wild stuff for sure, it doesn't mean I believe it.

There's some pretty non wild stuff I would have struggled to believe, such as elements of The Met conspiring to discredit the Lawrence family.

I continue to surprise myself with the ability to change. I hope you are not projecting aspects of your own character on to me in the assumption that I can't.

 

[butchersapron]

Reams and reams of shite. Week after week.

I note that you ignored my posts to you yesterday. Any chance of reply to them? Preferably a non 1000 word babbling irrelevant one?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

well, it tends to be one of these words that differs according to who's using it

it's meant someone who supports israel's "right to exist" as a state and for example, norman finkelstein has called himself a zionist in the past. some say that all (religious) jews could be considered zionists because of the importance of the "promised land" in the religion, for example at the end of passover saying "next year in jerusalem" and so on

i tend to use it to mean people who support the israeli government or support it taking a more right wing authoritarian stance, but a lot of people call themselves zionists who don't support the israeli state's policies and don't think that it should be doing what it is to the palestinians. i am not a zionist because i don't believe there should be any states

to be honest its not that much good as a description and it really shouldn't be used to mean anything else except a political movement which led to the creation of the state of israel, or at least to just talk about israel, not banking, bilderberg or any other shit

and of course when talking about banking conspiracies, child sacrifice etc it just means "kike". thats whats offensive about it, zionism has fuck all to do with "finance capital"

You see, my understanding of Zion is more of a "final return" / spiritual thing, which I have no problem with as it is far beyond the state of Israel as a concept, even if some see that state as a means to the end.

Not to be too flippant, but that seems the sense in which Bob Marley used it (Rastafarians always get missed out when listing the monotheists, probably because it's a small bunch)

Zion can also mean "peace" of course. Just like "Islam". So muslims are zionists really, which makes enough sense as they too are children of Abraham. aint words fun,

 

[frogwoman]

Just going to answer this for now, off out in a tick.

I think the dynasty does make a difference, yes. Nepotism and general keeping in the family very much sets things more in stone, more impervious to outside influence. And it's finance institutions (not just banks, but hedge funds) stand out because they are the ones who have been doing all the derivatives shite and a host of other stuff that isn't even based around production. Though it ultimately draws on labour and resources at some point when it is "cashed in", it is "fiction upon fiction".

It's been put to me that to so distinctly differentiate finance from industrial capital in such critique is "bourgeois" but I don't accept that, because the importance and nature of finance capital has grown/changed so much in the last generation in a way which can't be said of industrial capital.

do you think that the people who do this are all in dynasties though and learn how to do it through secret knowledge in the family? city traders come from a pretty nepotistic world but they're not all from "banking families", also nepotism doesn't only have to involve family it can involve your mates, or people who "show promise"

of course the more quotidian explanation is that these people end up getting these positions because they have grown up and have been socialised to a life of privilege, (or at least had access to that life) through what schools they went to, what universities, internships, connections etc, the sort of social expectations placed upon them

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Reams and reams of shite. Week after week.

No need to speak to the points. Just trot out the denunciations like a 1950s Moscow committee. Week after week.

 

[Pickman's model]

No need to speak to the points. Just trot out the denunciations like a 1950s Moscow committee. Week after week.

you're only 20 years out on the showtrials.

 

[frogwoman]

You see, my understanding of Zion is more of a "final return" / spiritual thing, which I have no problem with as it is far beyond the state of Israel as a concept, even if some see that state as a means to the end.

Not to be too flippant, but that seems the sense in which Bob Marley used it (Rastafarians always get missed out when listing the monotheists, probably because it's a small bunch)

Zion can also mean "peace" of course. Just like "Islam". So muslims are zionists really, which makes enough sense as they too are children of Abraham. aint words fun,

It does and can mean that in Judaism as well but zionism is a political movement, not a religious one

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

do you think that the people who do this are all in dynasties though and learn how to do it through secret knowledge in the family? city traders come from a pretty nepotistic world but they're not all from "banking families", also nepotism doesn't only have to involve family it can involve your mates, or people who "show promise"

of course the more quotidian explanation is that these people end up getting these positions because they have grown up and have been socialised to a life of privilege, (or at least had access to that life) through what schools they went to, what universities, internships, connections etc, the sort of social expectations placed upon them

Those are fair points. I think there's aspects of both to it, as with anything - many a family has a tradition of being associated with a certain trade, but broad privilege speaks for a lot too.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

you're only 20 years out on the showtrials.

I wasn't thinking of them. I'm not up for confessing something I ain't done. There's no need when others can attribute to me anyhow. But I stand by previous apologies as well.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't think that for example the people working in China's state banks or state oil companies are all from some esoteric "banking dynasty"

 

[Pickman's model]

I wasn't thinking of them. I'm not up for confessing something I ain't done. There's no need when others can attribute to me anyhow. But I stand by previous apologies as well.

what 1950s denunciations were you thinking of then?

 

[butchersapron]

You see, my understanding of Zion is more of a "final return" / spiritual thing, which I have no problem with as it is far beyond the state of Israel as a concept, even if some see that state as a means to the end.

Not to be too flippant, but that seems the sense in which Bob Marley used it (Rastafarians always get missed out when listing the monotheists, probably because it's a small bunch)

Zion can also mean "peace" of course. Just like "Islam". So muslims are zionists really, which makes enough sense as they too are children of Abraham. aint words fun,

When people talk about capital i tend to think of the wonderful lunch i had in the Bois de Vincennes. Of course the velodrome there brings to mind the marvelous performances of Sir Chris Hoy over the years. Years that last around 365 days. Of course the BANK of Ireland's on-line service is called 365. You see.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

It does and can mean that in Judaism as well but zionism is a political movement, not a religious one

What would ultimately inspire it if not religion, or at least some form of unifying identity? If that's where the word comes from, then the choosing of it must be for a reason.

 

[butchersapron]

No need to speak to the points. Just trot out the denunciations like a 1950s Moscow committee. Week after week.

Points? The point is that you post reams and reams of shite. Week after week. You have no point other than that. Even in that massively spaced/padded out little post you made you were utterly disingenuous and dishonest in once again attempting suggest that because the met tried to undermine the Lawrence campaign that the reams of shite that you write and the reams of shite you read and watch therefore have some merit.

And i note again that you have ignored my posts from yesterday whilst moaning that others are ignoring things.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I don't think that for example the people working in China's state banks or state oil companies are all from some esoteric "banking dynasty"

Quite, and all this stuff about people being related to each other (or sharing some kind of occult spiritual/religious agenda) obscures the simple conspiracy which is right out in the open: try and make as much money as possible.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

When people talk about capital i tend to think of the wonderful lunch i had in the Bois de Vincennes. Of course the velodrome there brings to mind the marvelous performances of Sir Chris Hoy over the years. Years that last around 365 days. Of course the BANK of Ireland's on-line service is called 365. You see.

Not sure, but I think you used the letter "o" 19 times in that post. "o" clearly represents the sun. 19 = 10 + 9

10 is a hugely significant occult number, not least representing the hermaphrodite. 9 is 3 (stages of the blue lodge) squared.

Say no more. You are hiding your allegiance in plain sight Brother Butch.

 

[frogwoman]

Those are fair points. I think there's aspects of both to it, as with anything - many a family has a tradition of being associated with a certain trade, but broad privilege speaks for a lot too.

It's quite simple if your family have sent you to Eton and one of your parents is a managing director of a big bank and the other one is the CEO of a construction company you're going to grow up expecting and wanting very different things and being able to have access to very different things, from somebody whose parents work in tesco

there's no conspiracy there just the workings of privilege - i don't think replacing "banking dynasties" with people who somehow "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" while still perpetuating inequality and the same system and structure, or for that matter some of the russian oligarchs for example, some of whom have only had such vast wealth since the early 1990s, is going to work

 

[frogwoman]

I'm interested in wild stuff for sure, it doesn't mean I believe it.

There's some pretty non wild stuff I would have struggled to believe, such as elements of The Met conspiring to discredit the Lawrence family.

conspiracy theory bollocks is nothing to do with real conspiracies, it's got nothing to do with it, the people who make up this shit are probably more sympathetic to those people in the met than any sort of progressive ideology

state intelligence agencies love shit like this. someone thinks that say mark kennedy can be mentioned in the same breath as "bilderbergers" putting fluoride in the water/spraying the sky with chemtrails or that the jimmy savile case and evidence of paedophile activity by senior politicians is actually linked to some blood libel/child sacrifice cabal??or at least that the former means that the latter has to be "considered with an open mind"!

well the state fucking love you for that !!

these conspiracy theories help to cover up real conspiracies, they confuse the real issues and mean that people are sidetracked, they are an absolute gift to the state, and despite what people like you may think these conspiracy theories originate in a tradition of anti-semitism, you look at who actually invented these ideas, right down to vaccine paranoia, black helicopters and the like. at best they are worthy of ridicule, at worst they lead to state sponsored persecution and murder.

 

[Disjecta Membra]

I've loved conspiracy stuff for ages, read lot's and lot's but not come across much stuff aimed specifically at Judaism, I know it's there but Froggy are you sure you're not using a large brush? (because it's personal to you) although it is concerning how right wing ct's are(didn't click till recently) so maybe I'm being naive.

 

[frogwoman]

I've loved conspiracy stuff for ages, read lot's and lot's but not come across much stuff aimed specifically at Judaism, I know it's there but Froggy are you sure you're not using a large brush? (because it's personal to you) although it is concerning how right wing ct's are(didn't click till recently) so maybe I'm being naive.

well i worry sometimes that i'm a bit too oversensitive about it, but i don't think so in this case to be honest.

the majority of this stuff is based on late 19th century / early 20th century anti-semitic bollocks i'm afraid. the common elements to conspiracy myths of the type taffboy's talking about are all about that. and i'm basing it on the fact that the real nasty stuff's never more than two or three clicks away on any of these websites. and usually it is pretty fucking naked.

obviously that's not all of it. there are other conspiracy theories that aren't about jews, but they're not exactly any better. like "eurabia" and that shit (which is believed by many people who support israel), or some of the mad 17th century ones about "popish plots" which historically were promoted by the English state and are still believed by loyalists etc today.

i don't think it's a coincidence that they're always coming from the political right, because it's never about capitalism, it's always about a certain group (usually it's historically been the jews, but sometimes the catholics and increasingly the muslims as well) pulling the strings behind world events, that implies that if this group had it's influence removed capitalism wouldn't be "so bad", it's never the structure, it's always bullshit about some esoteric bullshit that's been handed down through history.it's going to be right wing, because of the entire view it takes of the world system. it is elitist, it assumes that most of the working class are just "sheeple" to be ruled over by an elite, (it also implicitly assumes that conspiracy theorists will become the new elite because they're only ones enlightened enough to see the truth)

of course, what the state/capital has got up to makes all of this stuff look like a fairy story, i think real life is always more interesting/shocking than this load of fucking bollocks.

Of course apart from racism the other thing is that these people frequently make money out of desperate gullible people, that's why so much of their shit revolves around selling fake cures based on bullshit, colloidal silver, "cancer cures", which is actually utterly sickening

there's also stuff like what xes is into, aliens, esoteric mysticism etc which i think is bollocks but it's fairly harmless, i love a good alien story

 

[Disjecta Membra]

there's also stuff like what xes is into, aliens, esoteric mysticism etc which i think is bollocks but it's fairly harmless, i love a good alien story

haha, thats where i sit mostly, just an interesting yarn......but.

I see it as a healthy cynical distrust, which of course people take to far and fit within their own dodgy ideologies and it can squander proper discussion. This is dangerous though, as Our world is built around conspiracies, all of our social structures and psychological traits revolve around tribalism and making bounderies (the true conspiracies are privacy),companies,institutions, power structures etc

If the lord had the manor and we were all serfs, did we really escape or just had our leaches extended(wage slavery) cos i think when people see the disparity in wealth between the rich>poor they conclude the power/money is in the same hands(nearly)
all throughout history. Especially considering the population explosion...................................

Shit, sorry. Fuck i hate the fact that i can't write I've lost my train of thought before i finished, I'll amended it soon(hopefully)

 

[frogwoman]

haha, thats where i sit mostly, just an interesting yarn......but.

I see it as a healthy cynical distrust, which of course people take to far and fit within their own dodgy ideologies and it can squander proper discussion. This is dangerous though, as Our world is built around conspiracies, all of our social structures and psychological traits revolve around tribalism and making bounderies (the true conspiracies are privacy),companies,institutions, power structures etc

If the lord had the manor and we were all serfs, did we really escape or just had our leaches extended(wage slavery) cos i think when people see the disparity in wealth between the rich>poor they conclude the power/money is in the same hands(nearly)
all throughout history. Especially considering the population explosion...................................

Shit, sorry. Fuck i hate the fact that i can't write I've lost my train of thought before i finished, I'll amended it soon(hopefully)

No worries mate!! well that's the real conspiracy, the real conspiracy is capitalism, it's about money, and power, capitalism is bad enough without having to invent shit, i think all this other shit is at best a distraction. and when you look at the history of conspiracy theories they're never actually opposed to capital itself ... in my opinion this stuff is completely different to a real critique, or a real exposure of an actual conspiracy, because it's never based around a healthy distrust, state intelligence agencies etc love this stuff because of its power to obfuscate the actual issues and real coverups that are going on ...

 

[existentialist]

He's been posting here 10 years fw - in that time all he's learnt is to hide the wilder stuff he believes in. He's been walked through this time after time. He's not going to change now.

I keep trying to give him the benefit of the doubt - because I'm trying to be a nicer person - and I always end up feeling like a credulous prat. People who succeed in doing that piss me off.

 

[frogwoman]

well thats the thing, i try and give people the benefit of the doubt as well. i get worried that i get too over sensitive about this stuff and that i imagine it where it's not there. so i try not to do that and like try and answer peoples questions politely, it does take the piss a bit though when we've been trying to explain this stuff to him for years and years though

 

[existentialist]

I continue to surprise myself with the ability to change. I hope you are not projecting aspects of your own character on to me in the assumption that I can't.

And I hope you're not resorting to amateurish armchair psychology in order to attempt to undermine someone challenging your platitudes so as to avoid having to stand behind your own (weasel) words.

 

[CNT36]

And I hope you're not resorting to amateurish cod psychology in order to attempt to undermine someone challenging your platitudes so as to avoid having to stand behind your own (weasel) words.

Corrected for you.

 

[Frances Lengel]

No worries mate!! well that's the real conspiracy, the real conspiracy is capitalism, it's about money, and power, capitalism is bad enough without having to invent shit, i think all this other shit is at best a distraction. and when you look at the history of conspiracy theories they're never actually opposed to capital itself ... in my opinion this stuff is completely different to a real critique, or a real exposure of an actual conspiracy, because it's never based around a healthy distrust, state intelligence agencies etc love this stuff because of its power to obfuscate the actual issues and real coverups that are going on ...

I agree with that - There's a load of greedy and short sighted wankers taking everything for themselves and ruining things in the process - That's the conspiracy. All this talk of the jews/illuminati/whatever else bullshit amounts to nothing more than a distraction.

 

[existentialist]

Corrected for you.

I think we haddock enough fish jokes last time this came up!