Who should i vote for in Hackney?

[Sue]

So BarryB, I'd be interested to know which bits of Labour policy you support and which you bits you don't.

You see, I don't really get this thing that seems prevalent among those standing for Labour who like to think of themselves as left wing -- you know where they're happy to stand for Labour and use the resources/name recognition that entails but actually try to distance themselves from most current Labour policies. I never actually get what it is they think they're standing for. (Nul points by the way for 'social justice', 'socialism' and 'representing the working class' though might be instructive to see just how much brassneck you really have.)

So, shall we start with PFI? Throw in foundation schools/hospitals? Council housing? Maybe an ID card or two?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

As for Socialist Unity describing me as a Labour left wing councillor well obviously they know what they are talking about. As for me being the only such one in London well I really dont know if thats the case. Perhaps we should all read Labour Left Briefing to see if this is the case.

There arent many right wingers on this forum. So of course I criticise left wingers. Or are we all supposed to refrain from criticising each other? And make out we all agree with each other? If so there arent going to be many people posting.

As for 'Revolutionary History' its hardly a stunning revelation that im on its Editorial Board. An internet search months ago would have revealed that. As would looking at the journal (available frtom Porcupine Bookcellar, 5 Caledonian Road, London N1) By the way I wish you would not refer to the journal as 'trotskyite'. Its a stalinist term. On second thoughts if that is the political trajectory that HI is taking you might as well continue using the term.

As for Workers Action does it still exist? I havent see an issue of their journal for over a year.

Anyway it would be slightly interesting to know what you think of HIs de facto alliance with the Tories and Lib Dems in south Hackney,

BarryB

There is no alliance between HI and the Tories and Lib Dems in south Hackney.

There arent many right wingers on this forum. So of course I criticise left wingers. Or are we all supposed to refrain from criticising each other? And make out we all agree with each other? If so there arent going to be many people posting.

The point is Barry is that you have spent your entire time on this board attacking and trying to trip up other left-wingers. Your entire time.

You've shown no criticism of the Labour party or Tony Blair, or capitalism. In fact, in discussions about Hackney you have spent time reinforcing all these.

The left in the town hall Labour party is now down to, according to the link I posted above, down to... er... you! You're the last man standing!

Congratulations. Everybody else was chucked out, or was pushed out. So in order to justify you're fossilised ideology it is necessary to attack, at every opportunity, everybody else outside the Labour party.

You're own hopeless dogmatic political position of the left-retaking the Labour party needs to be bolstered by the defeat of any political alternative - a defeat, where possible, you will contribute to.

So where you can't lend a hand in that personally - after all you are just one man! - you need to publicly trounce any hope of an alternative.

So your contribution is never positive. It's devious and sinister - the hallmarks of the much of the left throughout the 20th century. And it's your brand of politics which have contributed to it's present weak position.

 

[BarryB]

There is no alliance between HI and the Tories and Lib Dems in south Hackney.

There arent many right wingers on this forum. So of course I criticise left wingers. Or are we all supposed to refrain from criticising each other? And make out we all agree with each other? If so there arent going to be many people posting.

The point is Barry is that you have spent your entire time on this board attacking and trying to trip up other left-wingers. Your entire time.

You've shown no criticism of the Labour party or Tony Blair, or capitalism. In fact, in discussions about Hackney you have spent time reinforcing all these.

The left in the town hall Labour party is now down to, according to the link I posted above, down to... er... you! You're the last man standing!

Congratulations. Everybody else was chucked out, or was pushed out. So in order to justify you're fossilised ideology it is necessary to attack, at every opportunity, everybody else outside the Labour party.

You're own hopeless dogmatic political position of the left-retaking the Labour party needs to be bolstered by the defeat of any political alternative - a defeat, where possible, you will contribute to.

So where you can't lend a hand in that personally - after all you are just one man! - you need to publicly trounce any hope of an alternative.

So your contribution is never positive. It's devious and sinister - the hallmarks of the much of the left throughout the 20th century. And it's your brand of politics which have contributed to it's present weak position.

As for there not being an alliance between the Hackney Independent and Tories and Lib dems in south Hackney lets just see what the following months bring.

Going by your comments above at least you recognise that im not a Blairite. And im more than pleased if you judge me on my performance as a councillor in Haggerston. The residents of Haggerston certainly will.

As much of the left being "devious and sinister" perhaps you can enligthten us as to what you are talking about. In fact just what are the politics of the HI? Are you socialists or what? And why arent you still part of the IWCA?

BarryB

 

[Sue]

BarryB, I'd appreciate an answer to my #121.

 

[BarryB]

BarryB, I'd appreciate an answer to my #121.

Suzy you only posted your message at 9.47am today! I dont ask of Hackney Independent that they answer me within 2 hours and they dont ask that of me. We reply as and when we are ready. Try to learn something from both HI and myself on how to conduct a discussion. Like patience.

BarryB

 

[Sue]

Suzy you only posted your message at 9.47am today! I dont demand of Hackney Independent that they answer me within 2 hours and they dont demand that of me. We reply as and when we are ready. Try to learn something from both HI and myself on how to conduct a discussion. Like patience.

BarryB

Oh dear. I thought it'd be quite straightforward, seeing as it's the party you represent but hey...

Do hope I've not touched a nerve....though I do wonder if you're as patronising to those you're meant to represent as you just were there.

Oh, and it's Sue not Suzy.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

As much of the left being "devious and sinister" perhaps you can enligthten us as to what you are talking about. In fact just what are the politics of the HI? Are you socialists or what? And why arent you still part of the IWCA?
BarryB

I think it's pretty clear as the website reads

http://www.hackneyindependent.org/content/view/211/56/

Who Are We?

Hackney Independent is a pro-working class organisation based in Hackney. We are trying to turn the tide of New Labour policies which are damaging the lives of ordinary people in the borough.

What Do We Think?

Politically, the working class is without a voice. The interests of the wealthy in the form of businessmen and property developers have been prioritised locally and nationally for far too long. The quality of our lives and future generations is at risk from New Labour. In Hackney, cuts and privatisation of services ignore the real needs of the borough’s population.
We seek to oppose this and encourage working-class political independence. However, we can’t do this on our own, and we need your help.

What Do We Do?

Hackney Independent is registered with the Electoral Commission. In 2002, we stood 3 candidates in the local elections in Haggerston Ward and finished second to Labour; coming within 100 votes of beating them. We also stood a candidate in the May 2005 Hoxton by-election, achieving a respectable 310 votes.

But standing in elections is only a small part of what we do, and our main emphasis is on giving a voice to the views of the working class majority in the area.

Hackney Independent organised the ‘Save Laburnum School’ postcard campaign Hackney Independent campaigns against poor services on our estates.

These are some of our other activities:

*Door-to-door surveys on local estates to gauge opinion on various issues.
*Advice surgeries in local community centres on repairs and benefit issues.
*The production and delivery of a free quarterly newsletter – ‘Hackney
Independent’.
*Campaigning against privatization and cuts in local services.
*Support the ‘Hackney Independent Kids’ Cinema’ project that shows films for kids in local community centres.

Although we are mainly active in Shoreditch, an area which currently bears the brunt of gentrification (note the proliferation of yuppie flats and the degeneration of council house stock) we are keen to spread our ideas and activities to other parts of Hackney.

If you would like more information, or would like to get involved with some or all of our activities, you can contact us in the following ways...

 

[Divisive Cotton]

BarryB, I'd appreciate an answer to my #121.

Don't expect a straight answer from a question put to BarryB, Sue

 

[BarryB]

Don't expect a straight answer from a question put to BarryB, Sue

Ive asked HI a straight question. Which was are you socialists. Perhaps you could reply. At a time of your pleasing of course.

BarryB

 

[BarryB]

So BarryB, I'd be interested to know which bits of Labour policy you support and which you bits you don't.

You see, I don't really get this thing that seems prevalent among those standing for Labour who like to think of themselves as left wing -- you know where they're happy to stand for Labour and use the resources/name recognition that entails but actually try to distance themselves from most current Labour policies. I never actually get what it is they think they're standing for. (Nul points by the way for 'social justice', 'socialism' and 'representing the working class' though might be instructive to see just how much brassneck you really have.)

So, shall we start with PFI? Throw in foundation schools/hospitals? Council housing? Maybe an ID card or two?

Sue sorry for getting you mixed up with Suzy. PFI- im against. Foundation schools- im against. Council housing- im in favour of. ID cards- im against. Not the most surprising of answers as I happen to be a supporter of Labour Left Briefing. Next question please. Oh by the way im also against the occupation of Iraq.

BarryB

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Ive asked HI a straight question. Which was are you socialists. Perhaps you could reply. At a time of your pleasing of course.

BarryB

No - we stand for working class independence.

 

[Sue]

Sue sorry for getting you mixed up with Suzy. PFI- im against. Foundation schools- im against. Council housing- im in favour of. ID cards- im against. Not the most surprising of answers as I happen to be a supporter of Labour Left Briefing. Next question please. Oh by the way im also against the occupation of Iraq.

BarryB

So, we have there four flagship Labour policies (taking your pro council housing stance as being the opposite to New Labour's) and you disagree with all of them. Would it be easier if you maybe told us which Labour policies you agree with? I imagine there must be lots, given you feel passionate enough about the party to want to represent them and all that.

 

[BarryB]

So, we have there four flagship Labour policies (taking your pro council housing stance as being the opposite to New Labour's) and you disagree with all of them. Would it be easier if you maybe told us which Labour policies you agree with? I imagine there must be lots, given you feel passionate enough about the party to want to represent them and all that.

Sue its quite simple many Labour Party members (including councillors) take the same stance as me. There are even several dozen Labour MPs who are opposed to these flagship policies. There are I can assure you more socialists in the Labour Party than in all the groups to the left of the LP put together. Its not rocket science to understand that. Or is it?

BarryB

 

[BarryB]

No - we stand for working class independence.

Thank you for admitting that you are not socialists. Everybody should now understand why Hackney Independent can so easily get involved with Tories and Lib Dems.

BarryB

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Thank you for admitting that you are not socialists. Everybody should now understand why Hackney Independent can so easily get involved with Tories and Lib Dems.

BarryB

'easily get involved with Tories and Lib Dems'? Based upon what evidence? And don't go down the Arthur Shuter road because I've already explained what happened there before.

Barry, if being 'a socialist' means having to stand in the same political camp as 'socialists' like you... then we'll keep our distance.

 

[Sue]

Sue its quite simple many Labour Party members (including councillors) take the same stance as me. There are even several dozen Labour MPs who are opposed to these flagship policies. There are I can assure you more socialists in the Labour Party than in all the groups to the left of the LP put together. Its not rocket science to understand that. Or is it?

BarryB

So which policies do you support?

And well, it may not be rocket science but it seems rather weird to stand for a party whose policies you oppose. I mean, a bit like having your cake and eating it -- so those people who do support those policies will vote for you because you're standing on the Labour ticket while those who don't, well you can do that whole 'I may be standing for Labour but actually I think their policies are crap' thing. Rather dishonest no?

Ah, and here we go with the socialism thing. How do you square being a socialist with being in the Labour party? And if you're going to go for the changing it from within thing I'd be interested to know how you envisage this happening as no-one's yet been able to tell me this.

 

[haggy]

i wasn't aware that referring to someone as a trotskyite was a stalinist term - just a description of someone who happened to be a trot. stalin died in 1953 - why the paranoia?

as for HI - we aren't a politically/iedeologically homogenous bloc. we all agree on w/c independence but have healthy arguments about the best way to secure it. personally it makes for more interesting political activity. we aren't tories or libdem and have no plans to be working with them in the future (in fact over my dead body - or at least over my leaving to do something else) - unlike the labour group on hackney council incidentally...

we aren't socialist either (altho i guess some individual members may have sympathies in that direction, altho not me). something at least we share with New Labour

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Sue sorry for getting you mixed up with Suzy. PFI- im against. Foundation schools- im against. Council housing- im in favour of. ID cards- im against. Not the most surprising of answers as I happen to be a supporter of Labour Left Briefing. Next question please. Oh by the way im also against the occupation of Iraq.

BarryB

Well perhaps you'll now use your position of influence to speak out publically against these policies - both in Haggerston and the rest of Hackney.

After all, the Labour party isn't a democratic centralist organisation. Criticisms of party policy don't have to be kept behind closed doors.

And if you don't speak out... where does that leave your own personal moral and political intergrity?

 

[Sue]

After all, the Labour party isn't a democratic centralist organisation. Criticisms of party policy don't have to be kept behind closed doors.

True. I believe members can even vote for things at conference and then watch while the Government does what it wants anyway. (Fourth option on council housing comes to mind.)

 

[durruti02]

Thank you for admitting that you are not socialists. Everybody should now understand why Hackney Independent can so easily get involved with Tories and Lib Dems.

BarryB

it is either you or trotskyism that is really fkn stupid if you don't get this .. as many people have said if socialism is people like you and the rest of the dinosaur trots then you can keep it .. and sadly thats the way the public feel

as you and we know labour won in hagg by making false prominses on a grand scale .. we maybe nievely promised people NOTHING but an office in the area if we won .. and a hard slog to try to get more power for working class people .. AND YOU WERE AGAINST THIS!!

yet again ironically or not, with all your childish accusations, your ally/colleague in the election was a 150k p.a. yuppie who makes his money by creating PFI'S!!

you demand answers of HI about an alliance with the Tories ( who Labour were in alliance with recently ) and LibDems .. ( who you failed to oppose in Stamford Hill to direct your energy against the greens and HI and Boff) ..

yet you have not answered any of my questions regarding your smears in the election ( you have finally answered were you are coming from politically .. jesus that took some work! .. LLB .. never ever been involved in w/c politics as far as i know! patronising bastards i remember them been referred to many years ago .. )




Boff is interesting though .. why is it you and Labour directed so much effort against him .. ?????????

it can not be because he is a Tory .. after all you did not try to get out Eric Ollernshaw ( actually a far bigger player but a safe one in terms of Nu Labour)

it can not be because he might be anti council housing .. labour after all have part privatised Hackney Homes and continue to get rid of estates with Haggerston and Woodberry Down involving massive sell offs of public land ..

it can not because he might be anti union .. Hackney Labour Party have consistently shown itself to be anti union .. or anti Unison who fight for their members rights

Your and Hackney Labour Party's problem with Boff was he alleged CORRUPTION against Hackney Council and it Labour masters in terms of you support in the sell off of public resources to private property speculators .. he constantly raised the issues of Broadway Market and Dalston

and further it was that his tactic in Hackney was to build a working class base for his brand of working class Toryism .. and that this included fighting for more power for Tenants Associations etc

(As you well know of all the councillors in Hackney he was the ONLY one to attend the Better Homes Conference)

That was why you and Pipe and Carswell ( good socialists my arse) wanted him out

BECAUSE GENUINELY OR NOT HE WAS COMING POLITICALLY FROM THE LEFT OF HACKNEY LABOUR PARTY

i believe as do all of HI that he is NOT genuine .. that he is indeed a thatcherite whose politics will do more harm to the w/c .. what is ironically tragic ( and a stunning indictment of you and your colleagues) is that since his election he did more for TA's and tenants than probably any other councillor ..

It is quite likely in the future that we will stand against him .. as we did once in the past .. for reasons of genuine w/c empowerment .. not as you and your colleagues do , cos he was an irritant in your campaing to sell off Hackney


Yet again you try smoke and daggers rather than deal with the real issues ..

 

[Divisive Cotton]

By the way Barry - are you for Anti-Social Behaviour Orders?

 

[Sue]

BarryB, just in case it slips your mind, think there are a number of outstanding queries directed at you. When you've a chance, I'd be interested to see what your response is to #136.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

No more Barry

 

[Sue]

No more Barry

Why, what's happened to him..?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Why, what's happened to him..?

Dunno - holiday? Maybe he's taking time off to recover after being a councillor for a month.

 

[Sue]

He was on here yesterday -- which is why I posted up the reminder.

More like he's done all the work's he's planning on doing for the next four years.

 

[BarryB]

Dunno - holiday? Maybe he's taking time off to recover after being a councillor for a month.

Go ahead and underestimate me. Thats fine.

BarryB

 

[Sean]

So answer a question then, Barry. When are you going to answer all the other questions? Or people might just start to think you're an evasive, bullshitting careerist tosser.

 

[BarryB]

So answer a question then, Barry. When are you going to answer all the other questions? Or people might just start to think you're an evasive, bullshitting careerist tosser.

It really worries me what people on this thread think of me!

BarryB

 

[Sean]

...but you keep coming back for more, don't you?

And not a single attempt to answer a lot of interesting questions.