Who should i vote for in Hackney?

[JHE]

You say Monty is a Stalinist.His manifesto seems really sound and progressive.

Does anyone in the CPB believe in Stalin anymore? Never seen anything on their website.
Come to think of it dont see much mention of Stalin in Morning Star either.
I think Monty seems honest and with far more integrity than those pseudo lefts in Respect.

Fair enough - but, TBH, the chances of an elderly CPBer not being a Stalinist are tiny.

 

[BarryB]

Why do you keep repeating this on all the various LW sites Barry? whats your agenda?

Do you think its right that Hackney Independent should offer its support to the Tories outside Haggerston?

We wont know the result of the Haggerston election until about midday tomorrow. Its been a hard fought campaign in what was a marginal win for Labour over the IWCA in 2002. I expect the result to be very close. This is particularly the case because some of the working class Tory support on the estates appears to have transferred to the Hackney Independent. The Tories (and Lib Dems) did stand 3 candidates each but as far as im aware did no work.

BarryB

 

[BarryB]

Im one of the 3 Labour candidates just elected for Haggerston ward. We more than doubled our majority.

BarryB

 

[JHE]

Congratulations, Cllr B.

Now that the election is over, would you like to tell us why it's better to have you and your fellow Labour councillors rather than the Hackney Independent people?

 

[haggy]

Do you think its right that Hackney Independent should offer its support to the Tories outside Haggerston?

We wont know the result of the Haggerston election until about midday tomorrow. Its been a hard fought campaign in what was a marginal win for Labour over the IWCA in 2002. I expect the result to be very close. This is particularly the case because some of the working class Tory support on the estates appears to have transferred to the Hackney Independent. The Tories (and Lib Dems) did stand 3 candidates each but as far as im aware did no work.

BarryB

now it's all over (and congrats BB - do your New Labour friends know yr a Trot? the electorate certainly didn't.) here's what this Hackney Independent supports the Tories bullshit is all about...

one HI candidate signed nomination papers for Boff for mayor. he did so as an individual. his reasons are his own, but i do know that a) he decided that a few less labour cllrs would be better for democracy - ie he's not an ideological Tory, and b) Boff (as opposed to Labour) was the only local cllr supportive of the Broadway Market occupation. when asked to sign the nomination paper, rather than tell the Tory cunt to fuck off, he reciprocated the support.

Anyone who knows HI will find it laughable that we are Tory supporters. (we beat Boff into third place in haggerston ward in 2002.) Still, the Labour Party made a big deal of it in their election leaflets, and perhaps it contributed to their victory.

 

[BarryB]

now it's all over (and congrats BB - do your New Labour friends know yr a Trot? the electorate certainly didn't.) here's what this Hackney Independent supports the Tories bullshit is all about...

one HI candidate signed nomination papers for Boff for mayor. he did so as an individual. his reasons are his own, but i do know that a) he decided that a few less labour cllrs would be better for democracy - ie he's not an ideological Tory, and b) Boff (as opposed to Labour) was the only local cllr supportive of the Broadway Market occupation. when asked to sign the nomination paper, rather than tell the Tory cunt to fuck off, he reciprocated the support.

Anyone who knows HI will find it laughable that we are Tory supporters. (we beat Boff into third place in haggerston ward in 2002.) Still, the Labour Party made a big deal of it in their election leaflets, and perhaps it contributed to their victory.

How could Carl Taylor and Peter Sutton (the two other HI candidates) get into a position that they allowed their fellow candidate, Arthur Shuter, to state that he would be "actively supporting" the Tories and Lib Dems outside Haggerston and even to sign the nomination form for the Tory candidate for Mayor, Andrew Boff? At no stage did they publicly disassociate themselves from their fellow candidates action. Did you really think that as a Labour candidate I wouldent notice or react?

BarryB

 

[militant atheist]

You say Monty is a Stalinist.His manifesto seems really sound and progressive.

Does anyone in the CPB believe in Stalin anymore? Never seen anything on their website.
Come to think of it dont see much mention of Stalin in Morning Star either.

Agreed, the 'Stalinist' tag has become a tedious cliche. I know plenty of CPBers, not one of whom I would identify as a 'Stalinist'. In fact, in my experience the party is unambiguously critical of him.

From "Assessing the Collapse of the Soviet Union" - 1998

'...an uncontestable mass of evidence that enormous and brutal crimes were indeed committed by the party and state leadership in the 1930s and 1940s; that Stalin bore a heavy and direct responsibility for many of them; and that many hundreds of thousands if not millions - of the victims were loyal Communists and Soviet Citizens.
Those crimes were a shameful blot on the proud history of the Communist movement, and they must not be denied or covered up with the excuse that great economic and cultural advances were also made in the Stalin period."

Robert Griffiths, General Secretary, Communist Party Of Britain.
September 1998

 

[audiotech]

1988? Took their bloody time about it.

...a report to the 20th Party Congress on February 25, 1956 by Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev, in which he denounced the actions of Joseph Stalin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Speech

 

[militant atheist]

1988? Took their bloody time about it.

Actually, that's a typo - it should read 1998

I wasn't suggesting that was the first time the Party had been critical of Stalin, that was just the best reference I had to hand! The quote is in the preface to a resolution of the 41st Congress in 1992. Also, more importantly, its the context in which the current members and supporters of the party view Stalin and the Soviet Union. Remember, the CPB as a party has only existed since 1988. Incidentally, I think the old CPGB lost a third of its membership after details of the 'secret speech' became known.

 

[audiotech]

Actually, that's a typo - it should read 1998

I wasn't suggesting that was the first time the Party had been critical of Stalin, that was just the best reference I had to hand!

I suspect it is the only reference matey?

 

[militant atheist]

I suspect it is the only reference matey?

Pretty unequivocal tho' wouldn't you say? Puts to rest any tedious allegations of the CPB's 'Stalinism'.

 

[audiotech]

Pretty unequivocal tho' wouldn't you say? Puts to rest any tedious allegations of the CPB's 'Stalinism'.

Deffo.

 

[militant atheist]

Deffo.

Great a convert! Ah well, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[durruti02]

How could Carl Taylor and Peter Sutton (the two other HI candidates) get into a position that they allowed their fellow candidate, Arthur Shuter, to state that he would be "actively supporting" the Tories and Lib Dems outside Haggerston and even to sign the nomination form for the Tory candidate for Mayor, Andrew Boff? At no stage did they publicly disassociate themselves from their fellow candidates action. Did you really think that as a Labour candidate I wouldent notice or react?

BarryB

why should we? ... it clearly was not our party policy .. we supportted hettie for mayor .. i did not agree with it mind and said so .. but the elctorate on the door are not that interested .. they were interested in what HI or labour we talking about .. and we talked straight ..about the local councillors records and the hackney council record ..

labour resorted to lies .. that HI were more interested in daltson theatre than local issues ( ) .. that we were a front for the tories ( who plays the role of the tories in hackney?? ) etc etc ..

and worst of all the abuse of the local african population who were lied to and coerced .. ghanians saying they had been told if the tories won they would be deported!! nigerians saying they had been told to vote labour ( this at 9.30 at night when it looked neck and neck!) .. nigerians being told they would get new flats if labour won etc etc etc .. what a fking disgrace BB what a fking disgrace ..

maybe we should have played dirty .. put out leaflets pointing out that Johnny MacShan lives in a luxury canalside flat .. that he earns 150k a year in a PR company luther pendragon that advises all sorts of scum companies on PFI gains .. amongst other things .. that you BB have had no interest in the area for 40 years (is it??) .. and just wanted a job/ income as you couldnt make a living selling second hand books??? that you are a trotskyist who is infiltrating the party .. or a trot who thinks nu labour is somehow good!! that your qoute in the first leaflet was in fact not from you at all but made up by a LP spinner and was used by half a dozen other hackney candidates??

so do you disassociate yourself from the smears and lies aginst HI and abuse of the african community that you and your party did?? a disgrace .. you should be ashamed ..

so what gives mate?? are you a trot or a nu labour?? or just confused .. still you've a nice income for the next few years haven't you??

and what did you think as you went around hagg west and Kingsland and looked at the slum conditions people are in or other disgraces likes Stanway Court?? this is what your party locally and nationally rules over .. there is no one else to blame ..

 

[audiotech]

militant atheist

Met some good trade unionists on a trade unions studies course, who were in the CPGB many years ago. Some of whom later moved to the CPB when the CPGB morphed into the Democratic Left.

 

[militant atheist]

militant atheist

Met some good trade unionists on a trade unions studies course, who were in the CPGB many years ago. Some of whom later moved to the CPB when the CPGB morphed into the Democratic Left.

That's my experience too! Far from being a sinister 'Stalinist' cult, I find most CPB people, of whom all over 50ish were previously CPGB, pretty instinguishable from genuine w/c left Labour activitists (when such a thing still existed). The whole Democratic Left thing perplexes me entirely, though they did take about £4m in assets from the old CPGB, the 'Moscow Gold', which by rights should have gone to the CPB. I think the DL is some kind of liberal think-tank now - New Politics Network or something.

 

[audiotech]

The organisation decided to reform itself into a left-leaning political multi-issue grassroots campaign group/think-tank based on the party's Manifesto for New Times.

The primary focus for Compass is the Labour Party and the international, European, national, regional and local institutions in which it operates.

http://www.compassonline.org.uk/

 

[Macullam]

Pretty unequivocal tho' wouldn't you say? Puts to rest any tedious allegations of the CPB's 'Stalinism'.

Stalinism means more than a slavish devotion to Stalin it represents a political method that led to the defeats of revolutionary movements in numerous developing countries and in the more advanced states eg of Spain and chile. It is characterised by popular frontism and a two stage theory of revolution which is in complete contradiction to genuine marxism. It lingers on in some organisations including the CPB. Its form of organisation is also alive and well we can see echoes in various so called left groups some describing themselves as Trotskyist.

 

[militant atheist]

Stalinism means more than a slavish devotion to Stalin it represents a political method that led to the defeats of revolutionary movements in numerous developing countries and in the more advanced states eg of Spain and chile. It is characterised by popular frontism and a two stage theory of revolution which is in complete contradiction to genuine marxism. It lingers on in some organisations including the CPB. Its form of organisation is also alive and well we can see echoes in various so called left groups some describing themselves as Trotskyist.

That's interesting Mac, would you develop the point about the 'two-stage theory' and its relevance to the CPB approach?

 

[BarryB]

why should we? ... it clearly was not our party policy .. we supportted hettie for mayor .. i did not agree with it mind and said so .. but the elctorate on the door are not that interested .. they were interested in what HI or labour we talking about .. and we talked straight ..about the local councillors records and the hackney council record ..

labour resorted to lies .. that HI were more interested in daltson theatre than local issues ( ) .. that we were a front for the tories ( who plays the role of the tories in hackney?? ) etc etc ..

and worst of all the abuse of the local african population who were lied to and coerced .. ghanians saying they had been told if the tories won they would be deported!! nigerians saying they had been told to vote labour ( this at 9.30 at night when it looked neck and neck!) .. nigerians being told they would get new flats if labour won etc etc etc .. what a fking disgrace BB what a fking disgrace ..

maybe we should have played dirty .. put out leaflets pointing out that Johnny MacShan lives in a luxury canalside flat .. that he earns 150k a year in a PR company luther pendragon that advises all sorts of scum companies on PFI gains .. amongst other things .. that you BB have had no interest in the area for 40 years (is it??) .. and just wanted a job/ income as you couldnt make a living selling second hand books??? that you are a trotskyist who is infiltrating the party .. or a trot who thinks nu labour is somehow good!! that your qoute in the first leaflet was in fact not from you at all but made up by a LP spinner and was used by half a dozen other hackney candidates??

so do you disassociate yourself from the smears and lies aginst HI and abuse of the african community that you and your party did?? a disgrace .. you should be ashamed ..

so what gives mate?? are you a trot or a nu labour?? or just confused .. still you've a nice income for the next few years haven't you??

and what did you think as you went around hagg west and Kingsland and looked at the slum conditions people are in or other disgraces likes Stanway Court?? this is what your party locally and nationally rules over .. there is no one else to blame ..

Provide one bit of evidence for the serious charge of west Africans being coerced please? The west Africans by and large supported Labour. Not surprising that and certainly not new. Are you seriously suggesting that at 9.30pm hundreds of west Africans rushed to the polling stations to support Labour fearing that otherwise they would be deported! What kind of make believe world are you living in. You say that "Nigerians being told they would get new flats if Labour won...". Well thats the line that the right wing peddle against Labour. You arent right wing of course but you should calm down for a minute and seriously consider where politically you could be heading.

As for Jonathan McShane living in a luxury flat all I can say is that luxury flats arent what they used to be.

As for me in four years time the people of Haggerston will decide whether I have been a councillor that has represented them well. As for you you are clearly suffering from a case of sour grapes. You really thought that HI would win this election but you dont understand the people of Haggerston as much as you thought you do. We not only trebled our majority but more importantly convinced 200 more people than in 2002 to vote for us.

But lets not get Haggerston out of context. Labour had a landslide victory in Hackney retaining all but one seat and winning back a bye election loss from the Mr Boff of the Tories (Labour 44, Con 9, Lib Dem 3, Green 1). So why should Haggerston have been an exception?

BarryB

 

[durruti02]

there is lots of anecdotal evidence some of which i already provided!!! and you know it! .. the west africans live in the worst conditions in the ward .. they seem to be the group MOST likely NOT to vote Labour .. and Labour the party MOST UNDESERVING of their vote

.. but bizarrely .. and unlike every other socio ethnic group they were the most pro Labour .. and it was clear that there was a clear surge at past 9 and that west african individuals told our tellers they were being told to go out and vote Labour ..

you suggest this is a dangerous arguement .. i.e. racist .. you and labour are the racists here .. using a poor black community to further the ends of a New Labour party whose policies benefit the white middle class!! brilliant ..

and so you will not address all the bullshit you won by?? the lies?? your copied statement?? etc etc???

bb you and your party are dishonest ..

p.s. sour grapes?? too right .. the majority of ordinary people in Haggerston are sick of Labour .. (which btw they see clearly as a pro middle class party!! over and over white and black w/c people stated they were sick of a labour council/govt that wouldn't build council houses or house their kids while block after block of flats goes up for the middle class ) .. but not enough were convinced by HI ( and having no track record on the council that is fair enough) ..

at the end of the day you managed to 'work' enough people in the cynical old machine politics way

p.s. can you explain why Jules Pipe was in the ward most of the day?? that there were young labour activists there from Barnet and Surry!!

You all put more work into beating a clearly pro working class party than you did into beating the Tories/LibDems in Hoxton or the Greens in Clissold!! How the fuck as trot do you explain that??

If you are happy with the result and the way it was acheived you and your cronies are clearly to blame for the continued alienation of the majority of people from politics and Labour .. and the inevitable move of many of those people to the BNP

 

[BarryB]

there is lots of anecdotal evidence some of which i already provided!!! and you know it! .. the west africans live in the worst conditions in the ward .. they seem to be the group MOST likely NOT to vote Labour .. and Labour the party MOST UNDESERVING of their vote

.. but bizarrely .. and unlike every other socio ethnic group they were the most pro Labour .. and it was clear that there was a clear surge at past 9 and that west african individuals told our tellers they were being told to go out and vote Labour ..

you suggest this is a dangerous arguement .. i.e. racist .. you and labour are the racists here .. using a poor black community to further the ends of a New Labour party whose policies benefit the white middle class!! brilliant ..

and so you will not address all the bullshit you won by?? the lies?? your copied statement?? etc etc???

bb you and your party are dishonest ..

p.s. sour grapes?? too right .. the majority of ordinary people in Haggerston are sick of Labour .. (which btw they see clearly as a pro middle class party!! over and over white and black w/c people stated they were sick of a labour council/govt that wouldn't build council houses or house their kids while block after block of flats goes up for the middle class ) .. but not enough were convinced by HI ( and having no track record on the council that is fair enough) ..

at the end of the day you managed to 'work' enough people in the cynical old machine politics way

p.s. can you explain why Jules Pipe was in the ward most of the day?? that there were young labour activists there from Barnet and Surry!!

You all put more work into beating a clearly pro working class party than you did into beating the Tories/LibDems in Hoxton or the Greens in Clissold!! How the fuck as trot do you explain that??

If you are happy with the result and the way it was acheived you and your cronies are clearly to blame for the continued alienation of the majority of people from politics and Labour .. and the inevitable move of many of those people to the BNP

You are day dreaming if you think Africans came to vote Labour because "they were being told to go out and vote Labour". We dont have the means to tell them that. And they are not pawns. They came out and voted for us as they agreed with our policies. I talked to many Africans before polling day and they had made up thier mind long before the day to come out and vote Labour. And so what if they come out after 9. The polls are open to 10 so there is nothing suspicious about that- except in your narrow minded mind.

As for the LP putting more work into Haggerston than in Clissold or Hoxton this is simply at odds with the facts. But clearly you are desperate to grab any reason (however ludicrous) for your defeat.

We won the election partly because of the hard work we put into it in the run up to the election. We were out canvassing and leafleting every weekday night for over a month. And working most days and also on Bank Holidays. We delivered thousands upon thousands of leaflets to practically every household in the ward. And we did a huge amount of canvassing. True we worked hard on election day but the help we had from outside the ward was very limited for the simple reason that people by and large were tied up with work in their own wards. As for Jules Pipe being in the ward most of the day I suspect you dont actually know what the exact boundaries of the ward are. But the thing that really won us the election was that people were convinced that the Labour council had done a good job in the previous 4 years. And they were prepared to give us a mandate to continue this work for the next 4 years for the whole of Hackney.



BarryB

 

[durruti02]

so you think it is acceptable that putting out lies and smears is acceptable??

 

[chegrimandi]

And they were prepared to give us a mandate to continue this work for the next 4 years for the whole of Hackney.



BarryB

can you stop putting that piece of shit propaganda rag through my letterbox please BB - 'Hackney Today'. How much does that cost annually to produce and distribute please?

 

[Sue]

And is it true that you are/were a Trot entryist to the Labour party? Just curious like.

 

[durruti02]

and if you won it on the months of hard work how come you thought you were losing so put out 2 smear leaflets in the last 2 days and bussed people in from other wards on the day??? .. surely your canvass returns would have clearly told you you were way ahead??

(it appears that we had won the postal vote counted a couple of days before .. though i am not sure this can be confirmed)

 

[BarryB]

and if you won it on the months of hard work how come you thought you were losing so put out 2 smear leaflets in the last 2 days and bussed people in from other wards on the day??? .. surely your canvass returns would have clearly told you you were way ahead??

(it appears that we had won the postal vote counted a couple of days before .. though i am not sure this can be confirmed)

We wernt complacent, we knew Hackney Independent would fight hard to take the seat from us so we fought twice as hard to keep it. Thats politics for you.

BarryB

 

[durruti02]

We wernt complacent, we knew Hackney Independent would fight hard to take the seat from us so we fought twice as hard to keep it. Thats politics for you.

BarryB

no you did not fight twice as hard .. i can guarantee we put in as many hours as you all did

the differrence was you and/or your party lied and smeared .. yes that is politics .. i did not expect it from you though .. now i know ..

you have still failed to respond to any of the specifics ..

were you happy that your qoute was false??
did you come up with the 'they are more interested in dalston theatre' bullshit??
did you come up with the 'HI arn't interested in anti social crime' bullshit??
did you come up with the idea of putting independant in apostrophes??
and continually implying we were a front for the tories??
that we were all outsiders?? (irony there methinks!! you live further out of the ward than anyone!!!)

etc etc

or others q's ??

like did you tell your colleagues you are a Trotskyist??
in fact are you a trot or are you now new labour??
etc etc

 

[cutandsplice]

And is it true that you are/were a Trot entryist to the Labour party? Just curious like.

Yes he still is. And he runs/works in Porcupine bookcellar, well known trot-type bookshop but at the same time, he's a blairite. A mass of contradictions really. I suppose you should be pleased with yourself, winning a seat for the neo-liberal, anti-working New Labour against the pro-working class Hackney Independent is something to be really proud of.
What are you and your labour chums going to close/privatise next. Do tell us.

 

[JoePolitix]

Yes he still is. And he runs/works in Porcupine bookcellar, well known trot-type bookshop but at the same time, he's a blairite.

He's also on the editorial board of the Trotskyist journal Revolutionary History or at least was untill recently:

http://www.revolutionary-history.co.uk/