Who should i vote for in Hackney?

[BarryB]

NigelI, I would imagine BarryB was playing the 'if you don't vote Labour the evil Tories will get in' and no doubt the 'it'll all be different when Gordon Brown becomes leader -- he's a socialist and *everything*' cards while deluding himself with the reclaiming the party thing...

Actually, can never decide if people are deluding themselves or just have the most incredible amount of brass neck.

Sue at least i dont have any doubts about Nigels politics. But you seem strangely reluctant to say what yours are.

BarryB

 

[Sue]

Why the reluctance to say what your politics are. If you want to know mine then surely its reasonable to ask what yours are.

You ask if I have a guilty conscience. Why should I? I havent done anything wrong.


BarryB

BarryB, I'm not reluctant to talk about my politics at all but you know what? This isn't about me (much as your interest is very flattering...) -- you're the one who's a representative of a party which..well...you don't seem to agree with about much. Just trying to get my head round how that works is all. Sorry you seem so uncomfortable about it.

As to the guilty conscience bit -- you know the leftwing socialist/New Labour/doing whatever it takes thing. Maybe it is alas too late.

 

[LLETSA]

What are you talking about? The Tory candidate for the Mayor of Hackney was not a maverick. Andrew Boff was the official Tory candidate. He was also the Tory candidate for Queensbridge Ward. Using the term "maverick" is a weak cover for supporting the official Tory candidate.

Yes HI did try something different. Rather than pursue its declared purpose of the independence of the working class one of its candidates (not an "individulal" by the way) supported the Tories outside Haggerston. I know ive said this time and time again but it dosent seem to get through to some people. If you have a candidate who says that he will be "actively supporting" the Tories and Lib Dems outside that ward he is standing in and also nominates the Tory candidate for Mayor than he should be beyond the pale. But Peter Sutton and Carl Taylor never distanced themselves from Arthur Shuters actions. For all I know privately they may have disagreed with his actions. But they never so publicly. So they and HI as a whole have to take responsibilty for Arthurs actions.

Why did HI select Arthur as a candidate? My guess is that they thought that the publicity he had received in the local and national press as a leader of the 34 Braodway Market occupation would assist Sutton and Taylor to be elected. And to be fair to Arthur he did receive more votes than Sutton and Taylor. But they didnt seem to realise that Arthur was a loose cannon. Shuters actions gave us the ammunition to emphasise our anti Tory credentials. We also attacked HI for their support for actions outside the ward that were trendy issues of no interest to those living on the working class estates ie the occupations of 34 Broadway and the so called Dalston Theatre. Its difficult to know how influential this arguement was in our victory. But the fact remains we trebled our majority with some 200 more people voting for us than did so in 2002. We obviously did something right. And Hackney Independent did something wrong.


BarryB

I haven't the faintest idea what goes on inside HI, but have you ever thought that maybe they might think there's been enough declaring people beyond the pale by self-appointed vanguards (many of whose members have, at some point or another, used the resources of the Labour Party they purport to see as an obstacle to their real aims-while arranging the conditions for a fall-back career within that very party). Maybe they think that people are capable of learning from mistakes instead of being cast down to the depths. I don't know.

You still haven't said how you see the LP rank-and-file overturning Blairism (or 'Brownism') when it never managed to challenge the pro-capitalist party hierarchy in times when conditions for this were infinitely more favourable. Your answer would be of great interest.

 

[BarryB]

BarryB, I'm not reluctant to talk about my politics at all but you know what? This isn't about me (much as your interest is very flattering...) -- you're the one who's a representative of a party which..well...you don't seem to agree with about much. Just trying to get my head round how that works is all. Sorry you seem so uncomfortable about it.

As to the guilty conscience bit -- you know the leftwing socialist/New Labour/doing whatever it takes thing. Maybe it is alas too late.

Sue pity that you dont live in Haggerston. You could have come to one of my surgeries. But alas....

BarryB

 

[LLETSA]

Why the reluctance to say what your politics are. If you want to know mine then surely its reasonable to ask what yours are.

You ask if I have a guilty conscience. Why should I? I havent done anything wrong.


BarryB

It's obvious what your politics are. They're Trot-Bennite in a party that now thrives without either Trots or Benn.

 

[BarryB]

It's obvious what your politics are. They're Trot-Bennite in a party that now thrives without either Trots or Benn.

Well thanks. I take that as a compliment. Unlike some at least you dont think that im a Blairite.


BarryB

 

[audiotech]

It's obvious what your politics are. They're Trot-Bennite in a party that now thrives without either Trots or Benn.

From the man who spent years in the Labour Party and now is?

 

[Sue]

It's obvious what your politics are. They're Trot-Bennite in a party that now thrives without either Trots or Benn.

I was going to say 'pointless' but hey...

 

[LLETSA]

From the man who spent years in the Labour Party and now is?

And now is wiser, I think you meant to say.

 

[LLETSA]

Well thanks. I take that as a compliment. Unlike some at least you dont think that im a Blairite.


BarryB

You've got about as much chance of changing Labour policy as any loyal Blairite.

 

[BarryB]

You've got about as much chance of changing Labour policy as any loyal Blairite.

Er?

BarryB

 

[LLETSA]

Er?

BarryB

While loyal Blairites don't want to change the policies, you do (so you say), but have no chance whatsoever of doing so in any meaningful way. So that makes you and them basically the same:they campaign for Blairism and so do you-you have no choice.

 

[durruti02]

In my opinion there is no chance of stopping the Academy. But feel free to write such a letter to the Hackney Gazette yourself. And of course there is nothing to stop Hackney Independent " getting stuck in".

Concerning our successful campaign there were no lies told. But all 3 candidates (now councillors) take equal responsibility for our election campaign. Talking about equal responsibility this is prescisely why Peter Sutton and Carl Taylor share responsibility for Arthur Shuters support for the Tories outside Haggerston. And that is why they are not councillors.

BarryB

so what is the point of you being councillor??

you are suppossed to represent the ward are you not??

and we see that millions extra is is to be spent on an unwanted academy , that in paper you are against , in your deeply deprived ward, that could have been spent elsewhere in the ward , and yet you don't want to say anything about it?? extraordinary!

so what do you comment on??


and lies?? hey cool you are continuing to tell lies!

of course there were lies ..

that " .. HI are more interested in trendy issues like dalston theatre than those that affect the ward .." ( to accurately para phrase ) laughable

that ".. HI were against ASBOs .. " in fact we have no policy .. what is yours?

that HI were a front or supportting the tories .. laughable again .. we thrashed boff in 2001 ..but we are going over all ground here .. is your memory going? it has been siad many times that arthur shutter was a noiminator for boff in recognition of the support boff gave to the broadway market cmapaign .. a personal decision that has been said many times on here was a mistake ..


but surely that is not really the key issue in hackney today is it BB ?? methinks you are trying to ignore the importnat things! .. what is more important than the massive privaisation agenda that your party are pushing in haggerston and throughout hackney

you say you are on the left .. so you must be against it?? and so what is your strategy to stop this onslaught?

 

[BarryB]

so what is the point of you being councillor??

you are suppossed to represent the ward are you not??

and we see that millions extra is is to be spent on an unwanted academy , that in paper you are against , in your deeply deprived ward, that could have been spent elsewhere in the ward , and yet you don't want to say anything about it?? extraordinary!

so what do you comment on??


and lies?? hey cool you are continuing to tell lies!

of course there were lies ..

that " .. HI are more interested in trendy issues like dalston theatre than those that affect the ward .." ( to accurately para phrase ) laughable

that ".. HI were against ASBOs .. " in fact we have no policy .. what is yours?

that HI were a front or supportting the tories .. laughable again .. we thrashed boff in 2001 ..but we are going over all ground here .. is your memory going? it has been siad many times that arthur shutter was a noiminator for boff in recognition of the support boff gave to the broadway market cmapaign .. a personal decision that has been said many times on here was a mistake ..


but surely that is not really the key issue in hackney today is it BB ?? methinks you are trying to ignore the importnat things! .. what is more important than the massive privaisation agenda that your party are pushing in haggerston and throughout hackney

you say you are on the left .. so you must be against it?? and so what is your strategy to stop this onslaught?

Of course im against privatisation. It was in our candidates leaflet. I will campaign against it within the LP and with groups not in the LP. Such as Hackney TUC.

Concerning ASBOs. IIRC Ive said that there is a need for ASBOs. But they have to be carefully targetted. Not the widespread slapping of ASBOs as in Camden.

I agree that we are going over old ground. So yes lets move on.

BarryB

 

[durruti02]

Of course im against privatisation. It was in our candidates leaflet. I will campaign against it within the LP and with groups not in the LP. Such as Hackney TUC.

Concerning ASBOs. IIRC Ive said that there is a need for ASBOs. But they have to be carefully targetted. Not the widespread slapping of ASBOs as in Camden.

I agree that we are going over old ground. So yes lets move on.

BarryB

you are a born politicain ... never answer the q. ... so what are you going to do about bridge academy? and the extra millions ?? do you not think it a scandal ?

you say you are arguing against privatisation in the LP .. whats the balance of forces? to everyone outside it seems it must be you against the rest!

you say your leaflet said the HLP were against privisation .. this again is typical LP dishonesty .. of course what they mean is they are against the outright giving away of a public service to a private company ..

as you well know HLP supports fully the blairite 'third way' method of privatisation .. so we see in every estate rebuilding a third or more land is sold to the private sector .. that managment functions are increasingly 'put out' and consultants brought in .. that the learning trust increasingly bring private money into schools e.g. in the Bridge Academy .. that they favour big business over local business in planning applications and regen

.. surely you as a socialist are against these part privatisations too???

would you as a councillor have opposed the Bridge academy ? or oppossed the planning for the luxury flats blocking the council tenants view of the canal application opposite the Perseverence?? surely this is what a socialist would do??

 

[BarryB]

you are a born politicain ... never answer the q. ... so what are you going to do about bridge academy? and the extra millions ?? do you not think it a scandal ?

you say you are arguing against privatisation in the LP .. whats the balance of forces? to everyone outside it seems it must be you against the rest!

you say your leaflet said the HLP were against privisation .. this again is typical LP dishonesty .. of course what they mean is they are against the outright giving away of a public service to a private company ..

as you well know HLP supports fully the blairite 'third way' method of privatisation .. so we see in every estate rebuilding a third or more land is sold to the private sector .. that managment functions are increasingly 'put out' and consultants brought in .. that the learning trust increasingly bring private money into schools e.g. in the Bridge Academy .. that they favour big business over local business in planning applications and regen

.. surely you as a socialist are against these part privatisations too???

would you as a councillor have opposed the Bridge academy ? or oppossed the planning for the luxury flats blocking the council tenants view of the canal application opposite the Perseverence?? surely this is what a socialist would do??

As im sure you are aware im against the privatisation of the East London Line as a look on the Hackney TUC website will show.

Of course if I had been a councillor prior to May I would have opposed the Bridge academy. That campaign has been lost though.

As for the new building besides Debdale House I would certainly have opposed the building that the Planning Committee gave agreement to. But dont get me wrong I dont think it is necessarily wrong to put a new building there but not one of IIRC 5 storeys.

And any such building needent necessarily have had to be housing. It could have been something for the community to use.

Anyway do let us know how your campaign against the Bridge Academy is going. And I note that whilst you were happy to occupy 34 Broadway and the so called Dalston Theatre you were strangely reluctant to organise an occupation to stop the recent start of work on the site by Debdale House. Probably because that wouldent have brought you much publicity for Hackney Independent- and not much support from Hackneys trendies either. Anyway the elelection is over.

BarryB

 

[Sue]

Of course im against privatisation. It was in our candidates leaflet. I will campaign against it within the LP and with groups not in the LP. Such as Hackney TUC.

BarryB

See, I'm so still not getting this. You're happy to stand for a party which is pushing through privatisation at a rate of knots but somehow you can say 'I'm against this' and that makes your standing for them all okay? See if it were just one issue I'd say fair enough but it seems to be pretty much every damn piece of policy. I mean, really, what is the point? (And if you start on with that 'reclaiming the party' bollocks again, please do tell how you plan to go about it -- and maybe what you've achieved thus far.)

And by golly, I'm sure your platitudes about working with this group or that will so make a difference in the face of the policy of your party. Also not sure how 'not in the Labour party' you could really call the TUC.

 

[BarryB]

See, I'm so still not getting this. You're happy to stand for a party which is pushing through privatisation at a rate of knots but somehow you can say 'I'm against this' and that makes your standing for them all okay? See if it were just one issue I'd say fair enough but it seems to be pretty much every damn piece of policy. I mean, really, what is the point? (And if you start on with that 'reclaiming thime party' bollocks again, please do tell how you plan to go about it -- and maybe what you've achieved thus far.)

And by golly, I'm sure your platitudes about working with this group or that will so make a difference in the face of the policy of your party. Also not sure how 'not in the Labour party' you could really call the TUC.

Sue till waiting to find out why your politics are. Its easy to citicise other when you dont do anything yourself. Or do you? Let us know.

BarryB

 

[Sue]

Sue till waiting to find out why your politics are. Its easy to citicise other when you dont do anything yourself. Or do you? Let us know.

BarryB

BarryB, not sure how this is relevant, except maybe to deflect attention away from the contradiction between what you say and what your party are doing... Oh, and so you can no doubt, in a highly original manner, dismiss whatever points I make by doing the old 'well she supports x/y/z so she would say that, wouldn't she?' type thing...

As I said, still trying to understand why you would stand for Labour, given that you seem to despise many of their policies. So indulge me -- why did you stand for them? Were you keen and volunteered eagerly, did they persuade you because they couldn't find anyone else, what?

 

[haggy]

Yes HI did try something different. Rather than pursue its declared purpose of the independence of the working class one of its candidates (not an "individulal" by the way) supported the Tories outside Haggerston. I know ive said this time and time again but it dosent seem to get through to some people. If you have a candidate who says that he will be "actively supporting" the Tories and Lib Dems outside that ward he is standing in and also nominates the Tory candidate for Mayor than he should be beyond the pale. But Peter Sutton and Carl Taylor never distanced themselves from Arthur Shuters actions. For all I know privately they may have disagreed with his actions. But they never so publicly. So they and HI as a whole have to take responsibilty for Arthurs actions.

Why did HI select Arthur as a candidate? My guess is that they thought that the publicity he had received in the local and national press as a leader of the 34 Braodway Market occupation would assist Sutton and Taylor to be elected. And to be fair to Arthur he did receive more votes than Sutton and Taylor. But they didnt seem to realise that Arthur was a loose cannon. Shuters actions gave us the ammunition to emphasise our anti Tory credentials. We also attacked HI for their support for actions outside the ward that were trendy issues of no interest to those living on the working class estates ie the occupations of 34 Broadway and the so called Dalston Theatre. Its difficult to know how influential this arguement was in our victory. But the fact remains we trebled our majority with some 200 more people voting for us than did so in 2002. We obviously did something right. And Hackney Independent did something wrong.


BarryB

well, i have to say, whatever else you are, you're very astute...

 

[durruti02]

As im sure you are aware im against the privatisation of the East London Line as a look on the Hackney TUC website will show.

Of course if I had been a councillor prior to May I would have opposed the Bridge academy. That campaign has been lost though.

As for the new building besides Debdale House I would certainly have opposed the building that the Planning Committee gave agreement to. But dont get me wrong I dont think it is necessarily wrong to put a new building there but not one of IIRC 5 storeys.

And any such building needent necessarily have had to be housing. It could have been something for the community to use.

Anyway do let us know how your campaign against the Bridge Academy is going. And I note that whilst you were happy to occupy 34 Broadway and the so called Dalston Theatre you were strangely reluctant to organise an occupation to stop the recent start of work on the site by Debdale House. Probably because that wouldent have brought you much publicity for Hackney Independent- and not much support from Hackneys trendies either. Anyway the elelection is over.

BarryB

i/HI occupied dalston theatre ?? don't be a donut .. we had NOTHING to do with it .. though individulaly we would support them .. and yes OPEN is essentially a middle class campign .. BUT surely you are not in favour of the TFL/LBH scheme?? it is purely buy to let/yuppy flats!

we supportted the Tonys cafe occupation as he was a good bloke and popular with local w/c people and that his being pushed out was corrupt and in the benefit of the yuppies .. do you honestly not think it an issue that a local w/c cafe was being pushed out by the trendies?? if you were in the area at all you would have known we had several flare ups with the BMTRA ( boffs group) over our general attitude to the market .. that it is for yuppies ..

.. i agree there should have been an occupation of the debdale site and interested that you ( and the ward party??) would have supportted it! I suggest we talk about a symbolic demo when it opens??

.. and i am glad to see where you stand re the trendies and all .. again though i have to say you keep strange bedfellows!! macshann and his missus are as yuppy as it gets!

maybe after all we do need to have a meet up .. i appears that maybe we agree on more than you have originally given out .. a shame you were not around before when we were campaigning against lab school being closed etc etc

on here you are coming across a right class warrior .. but if that really was the case you would recognise something in HI of interest no ??


and it is fair for sue to push you and ask what your strategy is .. it seems strange when HLP are so right wing and pro yuppy and when you are coming on here saying you are against almost all what they are doing


and you do not need to know hers .. this is about what people vote for in hackney not individuals posters politics

 

[BarryB]

i/HI occupied dalston theatre ?? don't be a donut .. we had NOTHING to do with it .. though individulaly we would support them .. and yes OPEN is essentially a middle class campign .. BUT surely you are not in favour of the TFL/LBH scheme?? it is purely buy to let/yuppy flats!

we supportted the Tonys cafe occupation as he was a good bloke and popular with local w/c people and that his being pushed out was corrupt and in the benefit of the yuppies .. do you honestly not think it an issue that a local w/c cafe was being pushed out by the trendies?? if you were in the area at all you would have known we had several flare ups with the BMTRA ( boffs group) over our general attitude to the market .. that it is for yuppies ..

.. i agree there should have been an occupation of the debdale site and interested that you ( and the ward party??) would have supportted it! I suggest we talk about a symbolic demo when it opens??

.. and i am glad to see where you stand re the trendies and all .. again though i have to say you keep strange bedfellows!! macshann and his missus are as yuppy as it gets!

maybe after all we do need to have a meet up .. i appears that maybe we agree on more than you have originally given out .. a shame you were not around before when we were campaigning against lab school being closed etc etc

on here you are coming across a right class warrior .. but if that really was the case you would recognise something in HI of interest no ??


and it is fair for sue to push you and ask what your strategy is .. it seems strange when HLP are so right wing and pro yuppy and when you are coming on here saying you are against almost all what they are doing


and you do not need to know hers .. this is about what people vote for in hackney not individuals posters politics

Im sure we will have a fraternal discussion at the Laburnum Street Party.

BarryB

 

[durruti02]

will do ..

 

[Sean]

will do ..

Can I come too? I'm feeling fraternal...honest.

 

[haggy]

Can I come too? I'm feeling fraternal...honest.

sunday 2jul06, 12 - 7pm. HI members will be wearing yellow steward jackets, and we'll have a stall. look forward to seeing you n the kids, sean.

look f'wd to meeting barry, too. no idea what u look like, but sure we'll make ourselves known to each other

 

[BarryB]

sunday 2jul06, 12 - 7pm. HI members will be wearing yellow steward jackets, and we'll have a stall. look forward to seeing you n the kids, sean.

look f'wd to meeting barry, too. no idea what u look like, but sure we'll make ourselves known to each other

You mean you havent seen our candidates election leaflet?

BarryB

 

[BarryB]

BarryB, not sure how this is relevant, except maybe to deflect attention away from the contradiction between what you say and what your party are doing... Oh, and so you can no doubt, in a highly original manner, dismiss whatever points I make by doing the old 'well she supports x/y/z so she would say that, wouldn't she?' type thing...

As I said, still trying to understand why you would stand for Labour, given that you seem to despise many of their policies. So indulge me -- why did you stand for them? Were you keen and volunteered eagerly, did they persuade you because they couldn't find anyone else, what?

Sue hope you can make it to the Laburnum Street Party on Sunday 2 July 12-7pm. Let me know if you need information on how to find Haggerston.

BarryB

 

[Sean]

You mean you havent seen our candidates election leaflet?

BarryB

Perhaps Haggy was tactfully trying to gloss over the fetching tie and jeans combination you were sporting. So last year, darling. So Noel Edmonds

 

[BarryB]

Perhaps Haggy was tactfully trying to gloss over the fetching tie and jeans combination you were sporting. So last year, darling. So Noel Edmonds

I could always wear a Arthur Shuter style suit. On second thoughts...

BarryB

 

[PVP]

In the future you will be able to vote for the Protest Vote Party.

They will give you the option to vote 'None of the Above'.

This is not the same as spoiling your ballot paper where it gets numerically recorded and plays no further part in who gets elected.

Voting for the PVP enables you to actually reject all of the candidates as not acceptable to you and forces the political parties to do a rethink. It allows people people to raise a protest vote against the main parties without having to vote for a party with racist or extreme views.

The Protest Vote Party is an apolitical party.

In accordance with with forum rules and a request from its moderators I have not included a link to the party website.