Who is the real threat: America or Islamic extremists?

[nutritional_value]

Hey guys, let's just blame the world's problems on America, Israel and Tony Blair! Great idea!

Throughout history, in every region of the world, super-powers and their proxies have been waging war on each other.

Technology has expanded these oscillations on a global scale.

America and Israel are just a continuation of history. Maybe they will be overcome one day, but what will we replace them with?

Imagine if the Nazi's had won WWII. That would have been the end of the Arab-Israeli conflict. No more Jews! Then again, we couldn't have a free debate on urban75.

Imagine if the Soviet's had wom the Cold War. Orwell's 1984 might have been reality.

We now must decide how to respond to the latest threat, the threat from Islamic extremists.

Why worry you are undoubtedly asking yourselves? Try this for size:

+ The Taliban persecute women, denying them education, health and dental care, and the right to work.

+ Iraq invaded Kuwait in search of wealth and regional hegemony.

+ Iraq slaughtered thousands of Kurds with chemical weapons in 1989.

+ Iraq denies it's own citizens food and health care (despite being the world's 2nd largest exporter of oil) and blames UN sanctions for the death of its citizens.

+ Between them Iran and Iraq killed 1,000,000 Muslims during the Iran-Iraq War.

+ Muslim women are routinely murdered for "crimes of honor". Even raped women are put to death.

+ Many Muslim women are forcefully circumsized.

+ Muslims, Druze and Marontes were slaughtering each other for centuries before Israel invaded in 1982.

+ Turkey routinely slaughtered Kurds until recently.

+ Turkey massacred Armenians at the beginning of last century.

+ Basic human rights are ignored by most Muslim states, including freedom of speech.

+ Syria murdered 20,000 of it's own citizens in 1982 during the Hama revolt.

+ Egyptian Muslims slaughtered the Coptic Christians.

+ Sudanese Muslim militants have been slaughtering blacks in southern Sudan for 20-odd years.

+ Algerian Muslims have been slaughtering each other.

+ Egyptian militants killed 60+ tourists at the Valley of the Kings a few years ago.

+ Iranian militants have recently been murdering moderate journalists and prostitues.

+ Islamic militants apparently slaughtered over 7000 people in New York and Washington in one day.

+ Islamic suicide bombers ruined the best chance for Arab-Israel peace in 50 years.

The last one is my pet favorite. I saw it with my own eyes. I saw how Islamic terrorists took overwhelming support for peace and created the current situation. The Palestinians are suffering today ONLY because their extremists devastated the peace process.

Now the Islamic extremists are taking aim at the West. blaming America, Britain and Israel.

Agreeing with such a sentiment only serves to appease a dangerous new threat to Western civilization.

You cannot blame America, Britain and Israel for most of the above crimes.

I AM NOT ANTI-MUSLIM. I WANT THE ARAB AND MUSLIM PEOPLES TO LIVE WITH THE SAME WEALTH, PEACE AND SECURITY THE WEST ENJOYS.

But we cannot allow the West to be suffer a similar fate or to be devastated by Islamic militants.

It seems that many of the people writing on this website are taking advantage of the freedom available only in the West.

If the threat from Muslim extremists continues unchecked, we cannot imagine what will happen to us.

 

[RaverDrew]

Hmm, look at Jack straw! TWAT!

 

[Tromaville]

oppps should have read this beforew i posted on final solution thread (goes much better here) ....

Agree with some of what you said nutritional .. nice post... just remember not only Islam has fundamentalists so does christianity and judaism in fact all religions has it own fundamentalist that are very dangerous and i include capitalism and marxism in that ..also Iraq can hardly be considered Islamic fundamentalist country... All thgose who deny someone else a peaceful existance should be seen to

Trom
(Edit: Added a bit)

[ 26 September 2001: Message edited by: Trom ]

 

[bezzer]

“+ The Taliban persecute women, denying them education, health and dental care, and the right to work.”

And that’s why amrica gave the taliban 58 million dollars in aid last may, much to the discust of organiastion like rawa

“+ Iraq invaded Kuwait in search of wealth and regional hegemony.”

Kuwait that global light of democracy, a country many belive in the middle easten states, to have been created for western oil intreasts.

“+ Iraq slaughtered thousands of Kurds with chemical weapons in 1989.”

And so did britain at the beginning of the 20th century and indeed turkey still does, which is a NATO country, but I guess that’s ok ?

“+ Iraq denies it's own citizens food and health care (despite being the world's 2nd largest exporter of oil) and blames UN sanctions for the death of its citizens.”

And yes the UN/ america understandes this and has plenty of documented proof from charity groups such as voices in the wilderness and indeed there own UN inspectors, but does does the west relly care about this loss of life ? well those sanctions are stll there… pal.

+ Between them Iran and Iraq killed 1,000,000 Muslims during the Iran-Iraq War.

Pleas do you really want me to quote the cristain stastistics from the first or second world war, what your point ?

+ Muslim women are routinely murdered for "crimes of honor". Even raped women are put to death.

That relly is a senstionalist load of bollocks, but yes it is true in certain islamic countries, but it certainly does not warrant the term “ muslim women “.

+ Many Muslim women are forcefully circumsized.

This is a cultural feminist argugment, but it is one which is also applicabel to mens cicumsition, which in turn is also apllicable judaism and well as islam. Personaly I think female circusition wrong and crule , but what the fuck are you saying ? lets launch skude missiles ? its only by helping woman muslim organisation like RAWA that we can affect change in this crule practice.

+ Muslims, Druze and Marontes were slaughtering each other for centuries before Israel invaded in 1982.

Oh well thay obviselly deserved the palistian occupation then. ?

+ Turkey routinely slaughtered Kurds until recently.

Who told you that ? the sun news paper ? well turkey obvissily had to give back its war toys to NATO so they can blow the fuck of afganistane.

------------------------------------
Right I have done my bit, can somebody finish of the rest of the list, need to get some sleep.

bezxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[nutty]

Bez...beat me to it

Imagine if the Soviet's had won the Cold War. Orwell's 1984 might have been reality.

…..er…and USA and UK do not act like Big Brother?

We now must decide how to respond to the latest threat, the threat from Islamic extremists.

………..What about the threat to our already limited freedom from restrictive laws….backed by big business and the military?

Why worry you are undoubtedly asking yourselves? Try this for size:

The Taliban persecute women, denying them education, health and dental care, and the right to work.

Israel persecutes Palestinians, USA persecutes Black people….and anyone not with them now apparently…see Bush

Iraq invaded Kuwait in search of wealth and regional hegemony.

……..Really…??????????????????????

Iraq slaughtered thousands of Kurds with chemical weapons in 1989.

And the US funded him, and the US contaminated the desert with Uranium

+ Iraq denies it's own citizens food and health care (despite being the world's 2nd largest exporter of oil) and blames UN sanctions for the death of its citizens.

…………..Not forgetting the frequent bombing raids by UK and US

Between them Iran and Iraq killed 1,000,000 Muslims during the Iran-Iraq War.

…………..Iraqi weapons funded by the US

Muslim women are routinely murdered for "crimes of honor". Even raped women are put to death.

……..Where, when…source?

Many Muslim women are forcefully circumsized.

…many?…….evidence please

Turkey routinely slaughtered Kurds until recently.

Turkey….funded and backed by the US

Turkey massacred Armenians at the beginning of last century.

American backed Suharto massacred Indonesians

Basic human rights are ignored by most Muslim states, including freedom of speech.

….Oh…I’ll move to Israel then…that holy shrine of human wrongs….

.Algerian Muslims have been slaughtering each other.

…….Govt death squads are responsible for most of the murder..as identified by a former Algerian officer now in hiding in France


Islamic militants apparently slaughtered over 7000 people in New York and Washington in one day.

Netanyanhu…murdered several thousand people in refugee camps in a couple of days, men women and children.

Islamic suicide bombers ruined the best chance for Arab-Israel
peace in 50 years.

…….you’re a cunt! see your Premier on that one..and look at the murder of several hundred Palestinian children by Israeli soldiers

The last one is my pet favorite. I saw it with my own eyes. I saw how Islamic terrorists took overwhelming support for peace and created the current situation. The Palestinians are suffering today ONLY because their extremists devastated the peace process.
Now the Islamic extremists are taking aim at the West. blaming America, Britain and Israel.
Agreeing with such a sentiment only serves to appease a dangerous new threat to Western civilization.

Civilisation?….you’re a fuckwit as well


I AM NOT ANTI-MUSLIM. I WANT THE ARAB AND MUSLIM PEOPLES TO LIVE WITH THE SAME WEALTH, PEACE AND SECURITY THE WEST ENJOYS.

on what terms-the present Israeli govt’s terms?

But we cannot allow the West to be suffer a similar fate or to be devastated by Islamic militants.

What about the millions who suffered and still suffer over the West’s imperial racist policies?

It seems that many of the people writing on this website are taking advantage of the freedom available only in the West.

It seems some people on this website are making ludicrous assumptions about ‘other people’

If the threat from Muslim extremists continues unchecked, we cannot imagine what will happen to us.

us…………..pls expand


As I said to you on that last thread-take your head out of your arse. When you arrive in the UK, go to Woolworths and purchase some anti-insular spray. Spray liberally over yourself, then go out and communicate with people who have a different view from yourself….forget university…it’s run by big business and you may become nutritionally deficient.

 

[Tromaville]

Ermm aren't we all forgetting something??? 2 wrongs don't make a right!!!

All of what has been said is bad but we can all think of something that someone else has done that is equally as bad that don't mean that the wrong is any less wrong!!!!!

For example: India... we massacred Hindus Muslims Sikhs etc ... and Hindus Muslims sikhs killed Brits (Including Civilians-- ie cawthorne (spelling anyone)) both are wrong and you can't justify one by bringing out another... (OK I know you weren't trying to justify but you know what i mean)...

I think the point of the original post was that not everything is Isreal US or Brit fault--others are wrong ASWELL !!

Trom

(EDIT : changed some things around)

[ 26 September 2001: Message edited by: Trom ]

 

[nutritional_value]

Let me tell you an important lesson I learned doing business in China and S.E.Asia. These cultures have different ways of manipulation, always to their own benefit. The same is true for the Muslim world. It is a cultural mechanism that enables Saddam to convince the leftists of the West that he has a just cause (in his case, pleading that the West is guilty while himself being one of the worst mass murderers in modern Arab history - 7000 Kurds who died of mustard gas poisoning in 1989 would agree). With their inexperience of doing business with different cultures (and I don't mean travelling to Goa or Phuket) Western leftists are possibly more susceptable to misinterpreting cultural differences. If you ever want to learn about a culture, enter into business negotiations with them.

Despite what the Americans have gotten up to in the world:

+ America has overseen the greatest increase in global wealth in history (believe it or not, many Asians prefer working in sweatshops to being starving street urchins)

+ America has enabled the greatest spurt of freedom in history (compare Asia and E.Europe today, despite all their faults, with during the Soviet era)

+ The very fact that you live productive, reasonably pleasant lives in the UK is due to the US - after WWII, the Americans could very easily have slipped back into isolationism (which is still the strongly preferred mode in times of peace; and in case you hadn't noticed, since the end of the Cold War, the Americans have been trying to sip back in to isolationism, until now)

+ So what if they care mostly about the wealth of their corporations? US corporations employ so many in Europe and Asia spreading their prosperity to millions (and aren't there any ruthless European and Asian corporations? Take my word for it, for all the ruthlessness of US corporations, they are a kindergarten compared to how Asian corporations treat their own people)

Duing the Cold War, America acted in defense of global wealth creation and freedom. Many of its tactics were questionable. But, the same can be said of the Soviets.

+ The Soviets fought countless proxy wars and used questionable tactics as well (invasion of Afghanistan, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, repression in E.Europe, attempted insurgency in Central America, etc.)

+ Lenin and Stalin between them killed more than Hitler

+ Freedom and wealth creation were for an elite few

So the tactics stank, but I'm glad the Americans won, and sorry that anyone suffered.

Don't think I am the whipping boy of anything, but I have common sense and know a good thing (and a bad thing) when I see them.

Again, the ONLY reason we can have this debate is thanks to the Americans.

Regarding the points some of you made regarding honor killings and female circumcision, GROW PERSONALITIES! These things are WIDESPREAD, EVERYDAY occurances!

Yes, Christianity and Judaism have their extremists as well, but which provide the greater threat, Christian and Jewish extremists or Muslim extremists? Christianity and Judaism are fairly benign compared to Islam today.

The Iran-Iraq War was during the 1980's. Perhaps you weren't born when this was happening, hence your short memory.

It is slightly callous to excuse Iraqi extermination of the Kurds by saying that the British did it. In general, I am more concerned with contemporary threats than historical events.

The sanctions against Iraq prevent the purchase of weapons not food or medicine. Iraq is the 2nd biggest exporter of oil. It has the ability to feed and heal its people. It chooses not to as a tool against Western sanctions.

 

[Chuff]

Geneva accord 1972..chemical weapons a global condemnation..Not in usa's best interests.
global emmisions....
How can you pick and choose which aspects of global "business" you wish to indorse without becoming involved across the spectrum.
$$$$$$ have helped to fund much of what you condem,Directly or otherwise.
Yes there are attrocites taking place all over the world,You never seemed that interested in the past.
I have no bias of Americans as people and have lived in the states, There are Angels and arseholes everwhere.
your post falls profundly into the latter category.

 

[Derek]

nutritional_value, Saddam Hussein, was supported by America and Britain until his invasion of Kuwait in 1990.

His entire career up to that point depended on backing from the US. Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party seized power in Iraq through a coup in 1963. The US CIA helped organise that coup in order to get rid of an independentminded government.

The US then supported Saddam as he unleashed a reign of terror which included mass public executions of members of the Iraqi Communist Party. The West turned even more sharply to back Saddam after the pro-Western Shah who ruled neighbouring Iran was overthrown in a popular revolution in 1979. The US initially supported Iraq when it invaded Iran. It described Saddam Hussein as a bastion against the spread of radical Islamism.

In March 1988 Saddam used poison gas to murder over 5,000 Kurdish villagers at Halabja as part of a wider campaign against the Kurdish minority. Western countries supplied him with the poison gas. The flow of Western arms to Saddam accelerated in the late 1980s as the US again threw its weight behind Iraq in the ongoing war with Iran. That support stopped only when Saddam misread the position of his US ally and invaded pro-western Kuwait.

 

[Steve]

NV, I don't have a problem with a lot of the points you're making, yes a lot of nasty stuff goes on in Islamic countries but do remember that Islam is a great civilisation.They had a flourishing civilisation well over a thousand years ago while we were still running around hitting each other with clubs.

Islamic extremists, willing to commit acts of terror are a very very small minority.

We in the West need to look at our own collective behaviour first before we point the finger of ultimate blame at anyone else. These are not simple issues with the good guys on one side and the bad guys on the other.

One of the things that's very irksome about the US attitude, an attitude that also used to be very common indeed in Britain until recently, is a complete refusal to admit that ones country has ever done anything wrong.

Until people start to examine these issues no real progress can be made - this is a political problem requiring a political solution, not a military solution, although some military action may unfortunately be necessary for tactical reasons from time to time.

Being positively critical of ones country's foreign policy does not mean hating ones country or wanting to do it damage.

 

[Derek]

NV, you also forget that another of Americas greatest allies in the middle east is Saudia Arabia which is supported and sold arms by western countries. It is one of the most brutal Islamic fundamentalist regimes yet it is supported by America.

Osama bin Laden's terrorist organisation was also trained and financed by the CIA during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Following the car bomb attack at the World Trade Centre eight years ago, four of those arrested and charged with the attack were found to be amongst those trained by the US (Robert Fox, New York’s regional FBI director revealed this in a TV interview in 1993). When the US attacked bin Laden’s bases near the village of Khost in Afghanistan (along with the Sudanese pharmaceutical factory) following attacks on US embassies in Africa, they could do so with pinpoint accuracy for the CIA had planned and designed them.

The US is now reaping the bitter harvest of its foreign policy which used Islamic fundamentalism as a puppet in its perennial game of globo-political-profit making. For years it courted some of the most dangerous, conservative and fanatical followers of Islam and is now paying the price.

 

[Matt S]

OK, I was quite determined to leave this thread alone as a waste of my time, but one thing I _really_ have to reply to. Saddam Hussein has somehow tricked the entire leftist community, we are told, into thinking that UN sanctions have hurt Iraqis.

NO. That is absolute and utter crap. Iraq was a flourishing and wealthy nation before the Gulf War and sanctions. That does NOT mean I support Hussein in anyway, he's a massmurdering fuckwit, BUT it is clear that UN sponsored sanctions have been responsible for the deaths of over 500,000 Iraqi children in the last ten years, and possibly over one million Iraqis overall. Two UN Humanitarian Co-ordinators have condemned it as genocide, when they resigned in protest. Even Madeline Albright admitted that the deaths were a result of US policy, but claimed that they were 'worth it'. Hussein is an evil man, but Iraqis are not, and to suggest that a fight to stop the killing of innocents is a fight to support a dictator is, quite frankly, both misinformed and sickening.

Matt

 

[orangeade]

Right on, Steve. Top posts. apart from one thing...

They had a flourishing civilisation well over a thousand years ago while we were still running around hitting each other with clubs.

---------Steve, we still ARE running around hitting each other wiuth clubs! It's just that the clubs are now bigger, more sophisticated and can be discharged at distance.

NV- The world is not black and white, much of what you love about 'the west' (wherever that is) is reliant upon the very oppression that you claim to despise.

+ America has overseen the greatest increase in global wealth in history

-Yeh, for the few at the expense of many...

+ America has enabled the greatest spurt of freedom in history

-Ho, ho......again, for the few at the expense of....

+ The very fact that you live productive, reasonably pleasant lives in the UK is due to the USA

- Thanks USA, for allowing me to live a 'productive' life. Let me know when i can be switched off, won't you..?

Duing the Cold War, America acted in defense of global wealth creation and freedom.

---no ,it acted in defence of its own imperial interests. And in defence of money. Nothing to do with 'freedom'.

+ Freedom and wealth creation were for an elite few

- Were?

 

[frogwoman]

What NV is saying is that we cannot blame the problems of the world intirely on america and capitalism. he is right. The cruel practices such as beaitng raped women too death do go oin in certain countryts such as afganistan... the taliban we have too remembber practice a corrupted form of islam...most muslims do not agree with them. saying that the doo is like saying that all germans agreed with persecution of jews in the holacaust. We cannot preternd these acts are not happening, the are. We must not get too rabid in attacking the US, because these people are just as bad as the capitalists. We must not support them or the us, but instead condemn violence on BOTH sides and not denie that it happens.

 

[Derek]

Frogwoman, I know that those things like Islamic Fundamentalism are bad too. But capitalism has had a hand in bringing that oppression about. The Nazi party of Germany for example were funded by big business. They would never had got to power without the support of capitalists. It is also capitalist countries that support some of the most brutal Islamic Fundamentalist regimes and sell them arms.

 

[Steve]

It would also be useful, in the context of some of the points that NV is making, to dispel the myth that the US is the "greatest" country in the world, that its at the top of the pile, that its values and economic success are what everyone else should be aiming for, that it has the "best" way of life of any country. None of this is necessarily true - the life of someone living in a poor part of the world, or in an Islamic country has just as much validity and value as that of a person living in the United States.

This is not an anti American comment, I generally like American people very much, its just an attempt to try to get things into perspective.

 

[nutritional_value]

Part I
======

Just to sum up my main themes (which has become diluted by pathetic name calling and pedantic arguing):

1. US hegemony has lead to greatly increased wealth and freedom in much of the world. Much of this is due to US success against the Nazis and the Soviets, and their hugely successful economy.

2. Muslim extremists (yes, a small minority) have, for the past 100 years or so, been waging bitter campaigns of repression against their own people, minorities, and women. Now they are begining to target the West.

If FORCED to chose between US hegemony or Islamic extremist hegemony I am convinced that EVERY SINGLE PERSON in this debate would choose the US.

Islam is indeed a great civilization, but for the past 200 years it has been in decline. It might be possible to blame the West for much of this, but the ultimate blame falls on the unavoidable process of history.

Yes, I blame historical process. Throughout history super-powers and their proxies have waged war on each other. Civilizations rise and then decline (might I add equally due to internal as external factors). The advance of technology has extended the super-power hegemony on a global scale (but this is also a historical process).

Therefore, to blame the US is pointless. It is the last super-power for unavoidable, historical reasons.

What is important is the future, and we are now in a 2 fold stuggle

1. To save the West and the Muslim world from the danger of Islamic extremism.

2. To extend the Western wealth and freedom around the world, including the Muslim world.

Item 2 here is the real reason for Islamic extremism. It is the same mind-frame that I know from the ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel - remain in the past, avoid modernity, because our power depends on it. Feminists might even add their own twist to this argument.


Part II
=======

The vast majority of American crimes you have listed can be fit into one of three main themes :

1. Bipolar super-power proxy conflict, i.e. the US-sphere against the Soviet-sphere.

2. Drug supply interdiction campaign.

3. Concerns about Middle East regional stability and supply of oil.

IMHO, theme 1 is the most defendable. Our current freedom is directly due to US success in this theme. Nasty things happened, but then again if the Nazis or Soviets had won, we might not be so well off.

Theme 2 is also justifiable, although methods and tactics lead a lot to be desired. Funding for the Taliban fits in here.

Theme 3 is also justifiable. The most basic argument goes that without oil the world would come to a stop. The region has been so intrinsically unstable for so many centuries, that super-power intervention is inevitable (yes, a historical process).

Might I just add that conveniently the Soviet Union was self-sufficient on oil, so the socialist left could easily afford to criticise US policy in the Middle East.


Part III
========

Just a quick answer to Matt.

Yes you're are right, Iraq was a wealthy, flourishing place, but Saddam got greedy. It is the folly of leaders to become too greedy and not satisfied with the wealth they have. They bring death and destruction to their people, and then blame everyone else (it's his way of remaining in power - it's easier to blame the enemy than to admit he was wrong).

If Saddam really cared about his people he might reassess his own leadership. He might say to himself, "me being in power and following my policies has brought death and destruction to my people. I am right, but the price of being right is to high. My people are suffering, millions are dead or dying because of my policies. How can I take better care of my people?" Is Saddam asking himself such questions? Probably not.

So, Saddam Hussein *has* tricked the entire leftist community, just the way the Soviets tricked them into believing the benefits of the Gulag. Yes, that's right. The Soviets were hugely successful in tricking the left that the people were happy under their regime, when in fact this was their tactic to destabilize Western society to achieve global power.

 

[nutritional_value]

Steelgate - one comment about big business support for Nazi Germany. In general this was NOT true until after the Nazi's came to power. Then they were forced into it at the risk of nationalization.

 

[Matt S]

(Must concentrate on doing work and not contributing to entirely pointless debate...NO....ARG!....being...drawn in!)



Yes, a large proportion of the leftist community was drawn in to defending the Soviet Union, even when it was obviously corrupt and totalitarian. Is this in ANY way relevant to the argument about Iraqi sanctions. Uhhh..well....no. No one who opposes sanctions thinks that Hussein is a great leader who will bring Iraq to greater prosperity. As I said before, I think he is a genocidal fuckwit. HOWEVER, are you really suggesting that the economic devastation and utter misery that Iraq has been brought to is entirely unconnected with the very harsh sanctions levelled at it for the last ten years? Do they really have no effect at all? If you think that then we're arguing from different worlds entirely. Hussein is an arsehole, the sanctions hurt his people immensely and do nothing to him, and of course hes not going to stand down because they are hurting his people. The sanctions make his job easier. Therefore....<deep breath>....STOP THE SANCTIONS!

Matt

 

[well red]

"What is important is the future, and we are now in a 2 fold stuggle

1. To save the West and the Muslim world from the danger of Islamic extremism.

2. To extend the Western wealth and freedom around the world, including the Muslim world."

No, we're not just in a 2-fold struggle. We are in a class struggle all around the world. Our enemies are the ruling classes of both the North and the South, the Christian and the Islamic and the Jewish. When you say you want to extend Western wealth around the world you are describing the process of opening up the markets of the 3rd world to be exploited by the North. I don't want to extend that, I want to destroy that. Your definitions of freedom co-incide with the freedoms to be ripped off and dumped on the scrapheap of history when you've been all used up. To oppose religious extremism is not to support global Capitalism. You act like a new war has begun - this is just a new part of a war that started long ago. If you want to replace islamic extremism with Capitalist extremism you are yet another part of the problem.

No war but the class war (i.e. Bin Man and Bush are my enemies).

[ 26 September 2001: Message edited by: well red ]

 

[nutritional_value]

Matt,

I'm just that if Saddam was a nicer guy, he might realize that he was wrong, and that his people are suffering because of him.

I don't agree that sanctions are the direct cause of the Iraqi people's suffering.

Saddam has enough wealth to give food and medicine to his people (Iraq is the 2nd largest export of oil in the world for heaven's sake, so what is he doing with the money?).

The world cannot ignore a regime like Iraq's. What else can you do about it? There are very few alternatives, and sanctions might have worked if Saddam had been more human.

 

[Steve]

You're still looking at things from a completely Western point of view, save the world from Islamic extremists and spread western "wealth and freedom" around the world.

Both strategies are fundamentally flawed, who is asking for this, how much of a real danger is there from Islamic extremists, are there not more important issues to tackle which would save far more lives, what ultimate right does the US and its allies have to interfere in the internal affairs of other countries just to spread western values.Why are Western vales, which are driven by materialism, necessarily better than alternative values.

 

[Steve]

Have a read of this NV, remember that some Americans are happy to fund terrorism too
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1563000/1563119.stm

 

[frogwoman]

Agree with Wellred

 

[General Ludd]

nutritional_value: Sanctions aren't entirely to blame, but Western foreign policy is almost totally to blame. Saddam is only in power because of a western supported coup that overthrough the previous regime (who was incidently not being co-operative to the west, not that was a contributing factor...). The west armed him, partially funded him and diplomatically supported him. He is the west creation and the people of Iraqi are being punished for our pet (as he was until the gulf war) getting of the leash. The sanctions are just the latest crime of western governments against the populations just about every third world country (and all the first world as well), those sanctions have killed 4000 children a month that weren't dying before sanctions were introduced but these are only a fraction of the 30,000 children that die each day, whilst there is a food surplus in Europe (the EU pays farmers to leave productive land baren as 'set-aside' with extremely toxic chemicals, turning fields into deserts). Whilst I oppose fanatism and organised religion their 'crimes against humanity' make the WTC attack pale into insignificance. Western imperialism kills more every day than Bin Laden and his organistation have ever killed.

 

[Chuff]

If forced to choose

Why should I be forced to choose NV?

 

[nutritional_value]

Steve,

If you ask the average person living in the 3rd world (in China, India, Indonesia, Arab states), wealth and freedom would be pretty high up on their list of desires. So would Nike shoes, Big Mac hamburgers, etc. Most people in the 3rd world want to emulate what we take for granted in the West. Even the Iranian Mullahs are having to adapt to Westernization in Iran among the youth.

So I hope this answers your question why I look at things in a Western point of view - because many (if not most) people in the 3rd world want to enjoy what we enjoy. The minority Islamic militants recognize this, and realize that power is shifting away from them, hence their kicking back.

You ask if there are more important issues to overcome first. In many cases capitalism IS solving many problems; look what the Marshall Plan did for Europe. Look at what capitalism is doing for China and the rest of Asia. BTW, the Marshall Plan did not make US firms rule Europe. European firms do pretty well in the world. So the same would be for the Muslim countries, just as now Asian corporations mostly rule in Asia.

Never before in history have some many people enjoyed wealth and freedom as under US hegemony. I don't know if you guys have travelled so much in E.Asia or S.E.Asia, but many places you go you will see this. Singapore was an awful swamp just 30 years ago, now look at it - that's 6 million people who owe a huge debt to capitalism and US hegemony. Singapore is an extreme example, but it is repeated more or less (mostly less) throughout the 3rd world.

What right does the US have? You have to appreciate that America was born out of revolution. Yes, that's right, the same sort of revolution that many people in this group are calling for (Government by the people, for the people) is what made America. If you all want to make your own revolutions in the world, even though you live in the UK, then why shouldn't America?

Well Red says "We are in a class struggle all around the world. Our enemies are the ruling classes of both the North and the South, the Christian and the Islamic and the Jewish." What gives Well Red the right to "interfere in the internal affairs of other countries just to spread western values"?

To tie this into the theme of the discussion, Islamic militants are not only preventing the spread of wealth and freedom in the Mulim world, they are causing a serious reversal where development has taken place, and are now exporting terror to the West.

meanoldman - For sure that is true but we can only speak with hindsight on this. No one in the CIA predicted Saddam would become worse than what he was replacing, and no one even predicted his invasion of Kuwait. You have to remember that US policy on Iraq was molded by hysteria that arose after the Iranian revolution - gas prices soared, people remembered the oil shocks of 1973, and Americans were angry about the hostages. By the way, the sanctions are NOT on food and medicine. Saddam is getting quite an income from oil exports. He is choosing not to import food and medicine. He is literally starving his people to save his regime. Regarding aid (food and money) to 3rd world countries, I heard of some ridiculously high figure recently for aid that had been given since the 1960's, and the situation is only getting worse. Even if the EU does have a food surplus, and gave it as aid, it is obviously not working. I don't like to blame anyone for this; nobody (except maybe Saddam) really wants children to die.

CliffChuff - I merely wanted to point out that, despite so much complaining about America and capitalism, most people here would choose the American system of capitalism over the militant Islamic system of repression.

 

[Mooncat]

The lesser of two evils is still evil. There are alternatives to the American "dream" and the Islamic extremist nightmare.

You seem to be trying to force our hand on this one N_V. What you appear to be saying is: "look how worse the Middle East is compared to America. Ha! Ha! Ha! you admit the American system is not as bad so that means you all must love America so give up all this leftist nonsense because your all hypocrites"

Am I right?

[edited because I fucking wanted to OK?]

[ 26 September 2001: Message edited by: MoonKat ]

 

[Nemo]

NV, the whole point is that there is no right to choice about the form of government you live under. As such, the issue about what we would choose is irrelevent as there will never be that choice in our lives.

Also, I am sorry to say that your posts make you out to be biggotted and fundamentally anti-Islam. I loath religion but I do not descriminate against one alone and I do not descriminate against religious people provided they do not try to ram their fucking stupid beliefs down my throat. Most if not all of the points you have raised have been raised before on the boards and met with the condemnation they deserve.

As for your comments about the US, it is not, contrary to popular belief, an altruistic, virtuous society, it is a malevolent dictatorship aiming for global subjugation and people kneeling to the stars and stripes in every part of the world. They do not believe in freedom but in stealth dictatorship. People are told they are free but with such qualifiers as to take this supposedly 'inalienable right' from everyone. This, coupled with Bush's rhetoric disgusts and scares me. One country has the power to make us all bow our knees in submission solely because their government and corporations are a load of unprincipled, opportunistic bastards. Please note and note well, this refers SOLELY to the US government and corporations and not to the people.

However, Islamic fundamentalists are no better. They too are a bunch of murdering, unprincipled, opportunistic bastards with no belief in freedom aimed at establishing a global state. However, I will not condemn an entire religion based on the actions of a few people as you seem to be doing. I know many muslims and they are all very nice people.

Pax vobiscum, Nemo

 

[kissthecat]

Governments the world over have helped backward regimes assassinate all progressive opposition. They have let the mullahs from the back and beyond take over cities and universities to root out progressive thought. Union leaders killed, children bullied or expelled and fanatics armed to the teeth by the industrial might of capitalist countries.

The CIA HAS to take some (most) of the blame but MI5, mossad the KGB and many others also helped.

Business men and women look so peace loving in their nicely pressed suits but they carry documents that seal the fate of millions and they do it secretly (in the name of protecting trade secrets). They negotiate but the power really rests with them and contracts are never or (very) rarely equal.

America is taking the flack at the moment and not capitalism in general. But if you all want to be the leaders of the world then shut up and take your medicine like big strong boys now. I used to at least respect Americans for their stiff back bones, now I realise it was a Hollywood illusion. You seem like little girls who lost their dollies!

Remember Somalia.

[ 26 September 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]