White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years

[Pickman's model]

Well, the argument I saw was that saying gender is socially constructed is exclusionary because for trans people it is innate.

is that gender or is that sex?

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm sure there must also be an faq on being an insufferable pedant within your posts, which in itself serves to stifle discussion. If not, then there probably should be.

As for substantiating arguments... I wasn't aware that this was a prerogative within online discussion boards, especially when a person is merely expressing an opinion. Or perhaps I'm wrong, and that's also part of your much loved faq's? Either way, you sure know how to make a newbie feel welcome and all

which part of don't bring a beef from another thtead don't you understand?

 

[winifred]

I think it's pretty much true that you can never really know how it is to be categorised within a certain racial or gender stereotype unless you experience it for yourself. Given I'm of Chinese heritage myself, I know that only too well given the experiences of racism that I've had during my life.

 

[Thora]

is that gender or is that sex?

Gender.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Rutita1, thanks for setting the record straight. For some reason, my screen display appeared to link my original post to your reply to Pickyman. Unless I was imagining it?

It did... that's why I was confused so scrolled back and checked what you had previously posted.

 

[Wilf]

There's something of the emperor's new clothes about all this, chutzpah even. For a decade or more, in an internet age, when all her friends and relatives from her 'previous life' could bring the whole thing crashing down, she ploughs ahead. Wow.

 

[Treacle Toes]

but maybe also being very passionate about a cause but very misguided on how to approach it? and also internalized guilt/shame and fear that you won't be heard if you speak as yourself?

She clearly wanted to be more of a 'part' of things than she felt she could be as a 'White' woman. Maybe she felt she wouldn't be taken seriously enough... I like to think her motives were not to make a mockery... I'm kind like that unitl I know otherwise.

It's awful though and will be milked for all it's worth and more by those who love to undermine the necessity of organisations like the NAACP etc.

 

[Manter]

Adds up totally. Con women brought up by christian missionaries goes to black college, exploits weaknesses. Family she has fought with cut off contact.

Who says 'brother who is willing to pretend to be her son' was willing- she dragged in some other bloke and pretended he was her dad.

Oddly concerned? From where did you get this?

What actually have you questioned here? All the things not covered above could be her - couldn't they?

Oddly unconcerned. The original article says that on Thursday (I assume when the interview took place) they didn't know where he was.

I said I couldn't put my finger on it.... But to take details at random, how does she get regular perms, hair dye and fake tan without anyone ever noticing?

And if you were a black kid living with a white woman claiming to be a black woman wouldn't you mention it to someone?

How do you find someone to pretend to be your dad?

It just doesn't make much sense to me. Feel like there is some vital component missing.

 

[Thora]

"Saying gender is a social construct is exclusionary to trans folk" and "biological sex as we understand it is a social construct" were two particularly interesting arguments. The term "terf" was used a lot

 

[winifred]

It did... that's why I was confused so scrolled back and checked what you had previously posted.

Thanks, I thought I might've been going a bit doolaly or something.

 

[weepiper]

Of course gender is a social fucking construct. if it wasn't why would I get mistaken for a man when I'm at work (in a bike shop, wearing shorts and a uniform polo shirt, because I have short hair and oily greasy hands)? This has happened more than once. And it's because some people (usually older men) just see the exterior gender markers and don't get as far as noticing the 34E tits under the shirt and the female bone structure

 

[Manter]

wtf?

It would be more common or garden story. White woman has an affair with a black man in 70s Mississippi (which I think is where the family originated)- family goes into denial, later she reclaims what she feels is her real identity and goes looking for her father, loses touch with the family who lied to her. That'd be perfectly understandable.

A world in which you find people to pretend to be your parents and do some modern version of blackface leaves me completely baffled.

 

[DotCommunist]

How do you pretend to be black? I suppose that question involves unpacking lots of things about percieved/imposed 'cultural identity' as opposed to skin shade and that within the US's own unique take historically and since on race- I'm sure someone has mentioned Jim Crow by now.

I've read some negative stuff about the naacp over the years, mainly when digging into panthers stuff. Like they are, or have become a mouthpiece for the african american bourgoisie. That they acted back when as a moderating influence on more radical tendencies (and were pushed to more radical positions by this process themselves). So who gains from this 'outing' ? internal power struggle? external attempt to discredit the org?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Also, is a woman who has dyed blonde hair as much of a 'fraud' as a woman who pretends to be 'black'?

Err? I died my hair blonde once. Was I pretending to be White?

 

[butchersapron]

It would be more common or garden story. White woman has an affair with a black man in 70s Mississippi (which I think is where the family originated)- family goes into denial, later she reclaims what she feels is her real identity and goes looking for her father, loses touch with the family who lied to her. That'd be perfectly understandable.

A world in which you find people to pretend to be your parents and do some modern version of blackface leaves me completely baffled.

I don't get what you're saying - you seem to say it's fake then offer reason why it's real. The family are from montana. Their daughter went to college in Mississippi. All these details are out there.

You are so many miles off on this.

Also none of the stuff that you stated as fact that i challenged were backed up in that post beyond well i would feel like that

 

[Thora]

It would be more common or garden story. White woman has an affair with a black man in 70s Mississippi (which I think is where the family originated)- family goes into denial, later she reclaims what she feels is her real identity and goes looking for her father, loses touch with the family who lied to her. That'd be perfectly understandable.

A world in which you find people to pretend to be your parents and do some modern version of blackface leaves me completely baffled.

Or, she had a bad relationship with her white parents, and a good relationship with her black brothers and husband, and just felt she identified more as black.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I almost expect it to be something simple- her mum had an affair with a black man and they while fuck up is one of those families lying to themselves things.

Manter? She isn't that old. Mixed couples in the US have been common place for a long time.

It would be more common or garden story. White woman has an affair with a black man in 70s Mississippi (which I think is where the family originated)- family goes into denial, later she reclaims what she feels is her real identity and goes looking for her father, loses touch with the family who lied to her. That'd be perfectly understandable.

A world in which you find people to pretend to be your parents and do some modern version of blackface leaves me completely baffled.

Or maybe, she has simply lied?

 

[butchersapron]

q: Is THIS a picture of your dad?
a: yes

 

[trashpony]

"Saying gender is a social construct is exclusionary to trans folk" and "biological sex as we understand it is a social construct" were two particularly interesting arguments. The term "terf" was used a lot

How can race and biological sex be social constructs while gender isn't?

 

[Manter]

I don't get what you're saying - you seem to say it's fake then offer reason why it's real. The family are from montana. Their daughter went to college in Mississippi. All these details are out there.

You are so many miles off on this.

Oh, I haven't read every news story in avid detail. I've read two, and then got on with my day. So yeah, she may be in need of psychiatric care, or a confidence trickster, or confused, or whatever, there are just a couple of details that jump out at me as being odd and incongruous. The story doesn't make any sense to me. If there is a whole world of people hiring people to pretend to be their fathers that I'm not aware of, fair enough, it just seems odd. And how you pretend to be black when you are white just seems implausible.

Anyway, much more interestingly.... She's not the first http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...o_be_black_rachel_dolezal_s_predecessors.html

 

[Thora]

How can race and biological sex be social constructs while gender isn't?

Who knows Who could imagine that saying gender is constructed would be controversial in a feminist discussion group.

 

[Manter]

I don't get what you're saying - you seem to say it's fake then offer reason why it's real. The family are from montana. Their daughter went to college in Mississippi. All these details are out there.

You are so many miles off on this.

Also none of the stuff that you stated as fact that i challenged were backed up in that post beyond well i would feel like that

And I don't think I stated anything as fact? I said it felt weird, not that I had studied everything and x y z were facts

 

[butchersapron]

Oh, I haven't read every news story in avid detail. I've read two, and then got on with my day. So yeah, she may be in need of psychiatric care, or a confidence trickster, or confused, or whatever, there are just a couple of details that jump out at me as being odd and incongruous. The story doesn't make any sense to me. If there is a whole world of people hiring people to pretend to be their fathers that I'm not aware of, fair enough, it just seems odd. And how you pretend to be black when you are white just seems implausible.

Anyway, much more interestingly.... She's not the first http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...o_be_black_rachel_dolezal_s_predecessors.html

You kinda talking a load of shit.

 

[MrSki]

From BBC Trending

 

[butchersapron]

And I don't think I stated anything as fact? I said it felt weird, not that I had studied everything and x y z were facts

Then you need to check what you've posted

 

[Manter]

Manter? She isn't that old. Mixed couples in the US have been common place for a long time.



Or maybe, she has simply lied?

Maybe. I have no idea! And the point I was trying to make- which was an idle observation- was that many people have affairs and pass off the children of one father as the offspring of another. In the Deep South I'd have thought it would be more likely because mixed race relationships were not common- they were still lynching black people in the early 80s! But I have no idea- it was an idle observation.

Or, she had a bad relationship with her white parents, and a good relationship with her black brothers and husband, and just felt she identified more as black.

to quote from that slate article it'd be like tasting soul food and saying 'damn that tastes good, I must be black'. Just makes no sense at all to me- I can see why if you had some heritage you may turn to it, but to marry a black man then decide that made you black seems beyond the realms of possibility to me.

But hey, whatever, it seems lots of people don't have any of my wtf-ery about the story, so I'll bow out!

 

[Manter]

You kinda talking a load of shit.

Ok..... Fair enough.

You may get further if you take a slightly less confrontational approach to every person you encounter, but I'm sure you know that and enjoy the whole aggressive and belittling thing. I'll add that to my list of things that will never make any sense to me

 

[winifred]

Err? I died my hair blonde once. Was I pretending to be White?

I wasn't trying to be flippant in my comments. Of course you can't equate what is essentially cosmetic appearance to another person's racial characteristics. However, what both examples illustrate is how people are treated differently based on their outward appearance.

 

[kebabking]

...A world in which you find people to pretend to be your parents and do some modern version of blackface leaves me completely baffled.

really?

have you not met the 'prolier than thou' uber-middle class kids (and not kids..) in the various lefty student microgroups who claim to be from the working classes? the fake accents, the fake names, the made-up back story to hide the priveliged, well-off background? most of them get bored and go and work for PWC or become family solicitors, but i suppose some must remain... most are about as convincing as a giraffe in dark glasses trying to get into a Polar Bears only nightclub, but some are better at it.

this woman is either just better at it and got herself into a (well paid, influential, respected) niche she'd have a problem getting out of, or she's unwell..

as to why her parents have dobbed her in, its pretty obvious: there's expensive, probably embarrassing, possibly family-shattering legal action on the horizon over alleged abuse. having the person making those accusations exposed as a big pants-on-fire liar, or - frankly - a loonspud, just as that legal action starts is a good way to ensure that they lose.

 

[butchersapron]

Ok..... Fair enough.

You may get further if you take a slightly less confrontational approach to every person you encounter, but I'm sure you know that and enjoy the whole aggressive and belittling thing. I'll add that to my list of things that will never make any sense to me

Fact me up on this claim of yours:

the brother who is willing to pretend to be her son and ignore her deception (if we believe the story)

I'm making good ground, ta for the tips.