White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years

[SpackleFrog]

that doesn't make her incapable of it. if she has a history of lying to people (and let's face it she does) then this would be but a small fib compared to the whoppers she's already told.

Does she have a history of lying to people? Or does she genuinely believe that she is on some level "black" or part of the black community?

If you can show me she deliberately misled people about her racial background fair enough like, I'm afraid I haven't read the whole thread (Sorry) but it seems to me that's how she understands herself so I don't know to what extent we can say she misled people really.

Thing is, we wouldn't say a trans woman was lying if they described themselves as female, and presumably most people here would agree that gender is a social construct. Race is also socially constructed no?

I met a woman in South Africa who looked for all the world white to me, and was defined by the old Apartheid state as white initially - she protested this because some of her family were defined as Grade A/B coloured. She told me she was proud to be coloured - one of her grandparents was black - who am I to argue?

Thought this was really interesting, may have been posted previously but really worth a read:

From Jenner to Dolezal: One Trans Good, the Other Not So Much

 

[Idris2002]

Does she have a history of lying to people? Or does she genuinely believe that she is on some level "black" or part of the black community?

If you can show me she deliberately misled people about her racial background fair enough like, I'm afraid I haven't read the whole thread (Sorry) but it seems to me that's how she understands herself so I don't know to what extent we can say she misled people really.

Thing is, we wouldn't say a trans woman was lying if they described themselves as female, and presumably most people here would agree that gender is a social construct. Race is also socially constructed no?

I met a woman in South Africa who looked for all the world white to me, and was defined by the old Apartheid state as white initially - she protested this because some of her family were defined as Grade A/B coloured. She told me she was proud to be coloured - one of her grandparents was black - who am I to argue?

Thought this was really interesting, may have been posted previously but really worth a read:

From Jenner to Dolezal: One Trans Good, the Other Not So Much

Oh my fucking God.

 

[killer b]

 

[ViolentPanda]

Bit harsh.

Yes, I know it's all a bit mad, I know as far as the vast majority of people are concerned she behaved fraudulently, but she's already had texts sent to her kids saying she should kill herself, can we avoid repeating that please?

You've missed the point.
I'm not saying that she should kill herself, I'm pointing out that she's a cultural appropriator, and that people who do such things rarely appropriate cultural artefacts that might be even slightly dangerous to them. Dolezal being about as likely to ritually slit her own belly open, as Pope Francis is to go down on a nun on live telly.

E2A: If she braided her hair, wore fake tan but didn't call herself black, would you call that cultural appropriation?

Would depend on the milieu in which she lived - if fake tan and/or braiding your hair were a "thing" for the people you socialised with or not.

 

[Mation]

Thing is, we wouldn't say a trans woman was lying if they described themselves as female, and presumably most people here would agree that gender is a social construct. Race is also socially constructed no?

I think the difference is that while gender is a social construct, there is an extra (brain-based) something that tells trans people they've been assigned the wrong gender. There is no such thing to tell you you're of one 'race' or another.

In other words, if you ignore the body and look just at the brain, I think there are linearly separable traits that can tell you what gender you should be. That doesn't mean a binary separation. But I don't think there are any sets of biological (from birth) traits that linearly separate out as race, that might be mismatched with your body.

Haha. As I say it, I doubt myself (on race in particular). Logically, it could be the case, but I don't know of any scientific evidence that it is.

 

[SpackleFrog]

You've missed the point.
I'm not saying that she should kill herself, I'm pointing out that she's a cultural appropriator, and that people who do such things rarely appropriate cultural artefacts that might be even slightly dangerous to them. Dolezal being about as likely to ritually slit her own belly open, as Pope Francis is to go down on a nun on live telly.

Fair enough, but what you said could charitably be read either way, no?

Would depend on the milieu in which she lived - if fake tan and/or braiding your hair were a "thing" for the people you socialised with or not.

So if one person does it its cultural appropriation but if a whole community does it its fine? Bit of a strange distinction to draw.

Didn't she spend most of her adult life around people for whom braiding their hair and having darker skin was a "thing"?

How do you define cultural appropriation anyway - what's the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural exchange? It's common practice among Hindu's to use Hennna tattoos - but the practice was originally learnt from East African cultures they traded with hundreds of years ago. Is that cultural appropriation?

PS Excellent use of milieu.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I think the difference is that while gender is a social construct, there is an extra (brain-based) something that tells trans people they've been assigned the wrong gender. There is no such thing to tell you you're of one 'race' or another.

In other words, if you ignore the body and look just at the brain, I think there are linearly separable traits that can tell you what gender you should be. That doesn't mean a binary separation. But I don't think there are any sets of biological (from birth) traits that linearly separate out as race, that might be mismatched with your body.

Haha. As I say it, I doubt myself (on race in particular). Logically, it could be the case, but I don't know of any scientific evidence that it is.

Recent scientific discoveries suggest you are very, very wrong about this - but even leaving that aside, what your suggesting is a biologically deterministic view of gender isn't it?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Oh my fucking God.

Oh behave, at least come up with an original meme, if you've got nowt funny to say and nowt sensible to say pipe down.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh behave, at least come up with an original meme, if you've got nowt funny to say and nowt sensible to say pipe down.

has that ever stopped you?

 

[SpackleFrog]

has that ever stopped you?

Stopping me right now mate.

 

[Mation]

Recent scientific discoveries suggest you are very, very wrong about this - but even leaving that aside, what your suggesting is a biologically deterministic view of gender isn't it?

No. There is recent evidence, good evidence, that the brain isn't very different between men and women at a fairly macro scale, in terms of structure and broad function. You can't look at a brain and say yes this is a female brain or no that's not a male brain. I've no problem with that.

But there is also good evidence for some smaller scale, possibly functional rather than structural, differences that are present from birth. There were some links on other threads. I'll try to find some tomorrow (it's my bedtime v soon). In any case, as I said, gender is or at very least has a major component that is socially constructed. But in between that and gender being synonymous with sex is evidence that some brain-based differences exist, and that they might perhaps be the basis for the feeling that trans people have that they know their gender and it's not the one they were assigned based on their external sex characteristics.

 

[SpackleFrog]

No. There is recent evidence, good evidence, that the brain isn't very different between men and women at a fairly macro scale, in terms of structure and broad function. You can't look at a brain and say yes this is a female brain or no that's not a male brain. I've no problem with that.

But there is also good evidence for some smaller scale, possibly functional rather than structural, differences that are present from birth. There were some links on other threads. I'll try to find some tomorrow (it's my bedtime v soon). In any case, as I said, gender is or at very least has a major component that is socially constructed. But in between that and gender being synonymous with sex is evidence that some brain-based differences exist, and that they might perhaps be the basis for the feeling that trans people have that they know their gender and it's not the one they were assigned based on their external sex characteristics.

Sounds like biological determinism to me but I'm not exactly scientifically minded.

 

[Casually Red]

On what basis have you decided she's perfectly capable. Did she criticize Putin or something?

Yes. She called him a no good, white bread, cream cracker , honky ...sho nuff.

 

[Athos]

No. There is recent evidence, good evidence, that the brain isn't very different between men and women at a fairly macro scale, in terms of structure and broad function. You can't look at a brain and say yes this is a female brain or no that's not a male brain. I've no problem with that.

But there is also good evidence for some smaller scale, possibly functional rather than structural, differences that are present from birth. There were some links on other threads. I'll try to find some tomorrow (it's my bedtime v soon). In any case, as I said, gender is or at very least has a major component that is socially constructed. But in between that and gender being synonymous with sex is evidence that some brain-based differences exist, and that they might perhaps be the basis for the feeling that trans people have that they know their gender and it's not the one they were assigned based on their external sex characteristics.

I'd be interested to see the evidence of differences (albeit only 'smaller scale, possibly functional') present from birth between the brains of those assigned male or female, and whether trans women exhibit the characteristics of 'female' brains (and what proportion of cis men also exhibit those characteristics, and what proportion of cis women don't).

 

[SpackleFrog]

Yes. She called him a no good, white bread, cream cracker , honky ...sho nuff.

 

[nino_savatte]

what's the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural exchange?

That's easy. Appropriation does exactly what it "says on the tin": it takes, uses, adapts and claims it as its own. It's a one way process. Exchange is a two way process in which one thing is swapped for another. Each party operates on a level playing field, so to speak. An example of cultural appropriation on the countercultural level would be the adoption of The Rolling Stones' Street Fighting Man as a protest anthem (when in fact it was nothing of the sort) by protesters in the late 60s.

 

[TopCat]

Weird story. Reminds me of people pretending to be war veterans.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fair enough, but what you said could charitably be read either way, no?



So if one person does it its cultural appropriation but if a whole community does it its fine? Bit of a strange distinction to draw.

That's a distinction you are drawing, not me.
Here's the thing, back in the '70s I knew working class white girls who had their hair corn-rowed or braided, and black working class girls who had their hair straightened, etc. That wasn't cultural appropriation because both sets of girls grew up with one another, and crossovers between cultures were frequent.

Didn't she spend most of her adult life around people for whom braiding their hair and having darker skin was a "thing"?

After she'd decided to appropriate blackness for her own use.

How do you define cultural appropriation anyway - what's the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural exchange? It's common practice among Hindu's to use Hennna tattoos - but the practice was originally learnt from East African cultures they traded with hundreds of years ago. Is that cultural appropriation?

PS Excellent use of milieu.

Cultural exchange is when both parties bring something to the table. Cultural exchange also tends to be "natural", in that it often happens without any outside influence, and is a consequence of two or more cultures existing non-exclusively beside each other.
Cultural appropriation, on the other hand, is where a cultural artefact is "borrowed" without reciprocity - where something is taken without recompense.
Your analogy re: henna doesn't scan. That's something that happened over a long period of time, and occurred alongside a distinct population shift from India to the east African states and back again. Dolezal's deciding to braid her hair was something she knowingly appropriated in a very short time-frame.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Haha. As I say it, I doubt myself (on race in particular). Logically, it could be the case, but I don't know of any scientific evidence that it is.

Neither do I, at least that isn't shot full of so many assumptions about the "nature of race" as to be about as scientific as a bootful of piss.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's easy. Appropriation does exactly what it "says on the tin": it takes, uses, adapts and claims it as its own. It's a one way process. Exchange is a two way process in which one thing is swapped for another. Each party operates on a level playing field, so to speak. An example of cultural appropriation on the countercultural level would be the adoption of The Rolling Stones' Street Fighting Man as a protest anthem (when in fact it was nothing of the sort) by protesters in the late 60s.

i would have thought the appropriation the other way round, from protesters to the rolling stones: that the stones were disguising themselves as protesters when they were nothing of the sort.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Weird story. Reminds me of people pretending to be war veterans.

Look sunshine, I didn't fight in two world wars just so you could say "weird story"!

 

[SpackleFrog]

That's a distinction you are drawing, not me.
Here's the thing, back in the '70s I knew working class white girls who had their hair corn-rowed or braided, and black working class girls who had their hair straightened, etc. That wasn't cultural appropriation because both sets of girls grew up with one another, and crossovers between cultures were frequent.



After she'd decided to appropriate blackness for her own use.



Cultural exchange is when both parties bring something to the table. Cultural exchange also tends to be "natural", in that it often happens without any outside influence, and is a consequence of two or more cultures existing non-exclusively beside each other.
Cultural appropriation, on the other hand, is where a cultural artefact is "borrowed" without reciprocity - where something is taken without recompense.
Your analogy re: henna doesn't scan. That's something that happened over a long period of time, and occurred alongside a distinct population shift from India to the east African states and back again. Dolezal's deciding to braid her hair was something she knowingly appropriated in a very short time-frame.

Well hang on, and again its difficult to know what to believe, but according to the (very sympathetic) Guardian article didn't she begin to talk of herself as black quite a while after she began to be treated as black?

And stepping back a bit from the individual case, are we saying that whatever process might have led someone to believe themselves to be black, that this is always deliberate cultural appropriation and should be simplistically condemned?

 

[killer b]

It isn't difficult at all to know what to believe.

 

[nino_savatte]

i would have thought the appropriation the other way round, from protesters to the rolling stones: that the stones were disguising themselves as protesters when they were nothing of the sort.

Not quite. The Stones posed as rebels, while the protesters appropriated Street Fighting Man. There was no exchange taking place.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well hang on, and again its difficult to know what to believe, but according to the (very sympathetic) Guardian article didn't she begin to talk of herself as black quite a while after she began to be treated as black?

The article elides a lot of stuff that's been linked to on this thread.

And stepping back a bit from the individual case, are we saying that whatever process might have led someone to believe themselves to be black, that this is always deliberate cultural appropriation and should be simplistically condemned?

There are no absolutes, just as there's no actual evidence that Ms.Dolezal believed herself to be black after spending the first couple of decades of her life believing herself to be white. What appears to have triggered this belief is the realisation that she could get a college scholarship if she identified as black that she couldn't get as white. She is very likely to have known what she was doing. That much appears to be evident in the lengths to which she went to conceal and obfuscate.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It isn't difficult at all to know what to believe.

I knew plenty of white kids (male and female) in the '70s who incorporated words from Jamaican patois into their vocabulary. Can only think of one boy who pretended to have black forefathers, though would would have been difficult, given that young master Cohen's great-grandparents all came to the UK from the same part of Polish east Galicia.

 

[redsquirrel]

But there is also good evidence for some smaller scale, possibly functional rather than structural, differences that are present from birth. There were some links on other threads. I'll try to find some tomorrow (it's my bedtime v soon). In any case, as I said, gender is or at very least has a major component that is socially constructed. But in between that and gender being synonymous with sex is evidence that some brain-based differences exist, and that they might perhaps be the basis for the feeling that trans people have that they know their gender and it's not the one they were assigned based on their external sex characteristics.

I'd be interested to see the evidence of differences (albeit only 'smaller scale, possibly functional') present from birth between the brains of those assigned male or female, and whether trans women exhibit the characteristics of 'female' brains (and what proportion of cis men also exhibit those characteristics, and what proportion of cis women don't).

I have a real problem with the 'biological hardcoded' or 'naturally X' arguments. Not just on a scientific level - I don't think there's enough strong evidence to either rule these theories in or out - but also on the philosophical level. I mean even if it is the case there are 'female brain characteristics' and that many trans women show these characteristics are we then going to say that someone who want's to transition but doesn't show the 'correct' brain differences is less legitimate than someone who does? Are transwomen who don't have 'female' brains are basically charlatans like Dolezal?

Surely we can just distinguish wankers like Dolezal from the simply fact that they are lying fraudsters - I don't think attempting to bring in a lack of some biological basis helps anyone.

 

[butchersapron]

The cultural appropriation angle is a total red herring. It's about two things for me - lying and affirming the colour line. The latter is where the comparison with other cases where people seek to bring out the social construction of various things falls down. She has done the opposite. For her race is very real in every sense and needs to be imposed, enforced and policed.

 

[redsquirrel]

The cultural appropriation angle is a total red herring. It's about two things for me - lying and enforcing the colour line. The latter is where the comparison with other cases where people seek to bring out the social construction of various things falls down. She has done the opposite. For her race is very real in every sense and needs to be imposed, enforced and policed.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, only i did it with more waffle.

 

[rekil]

I suspect that this

“What I believe about race is that race is not real. It’s not a biological reality. It’s a hierarchical system that was created to leverage power and privilege between different groups of people.”

might not have been an opinion she had held until Toni Morrison's appearance on Colbert (4:10)

Spoiler