White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years

[ViolentPanda]

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted?

How very late 1980s Chaote.

 

[Athos]

January 2015? Pretty sure that's just a typo? This only kicked off in the June. She claimed it almost immediately.

Yes, I think you're right. In which case she claimed it even sooner! She obviously hadn't at the time of Butchersapron's post, but must have done so very shortly after.

 

[Riklet]

Very interesting the latest interview and article about her. I find it explains a lot and I find it hard to summon up any strong feelings about her.

It is sad and ironic is they only went after her bercause she was a good activist. And she claims she is now marginalised and rejected by the 'black community' which is obviously her version of events and experience, but kinda sad too really.. Even though her deception is so bizarre and weird.

Can she claim 'black identity' despite not being a black woman based on her lived experiences? Is this just cultural apppropriation for her own cultural, social and economic benefit? Sociologically I find it fascinating, although im not really sure. Does this whole thing maybe say just as much about class and cultural capital than it does about race/ethnicity...

 

[Casually Red]

It says nobody likes a ridiculous chronic bullshitter . It was a point were identity politics went so far up its own arse it came out its ear . It's beyond ludicrous .

 

[belboid]

It says nobody likes a ridiculous chronic bullshitter .

Said by someone who really should,know...

 

[LDC]

It says nobody likes a ridiculous chronic bullshitter . It was a point were identity politics went so far up its own arse it came out its ear . It's beyond ludicrous .

Do you feel any hint of sympathy for her? On some level I agree with you, but it comes across to me that she's a bit lost and fucked up, and always has been, and that's what's lead to this situation now.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

That is a very interesting interview. I think this growth of the idea of Trans-ness into Race was inevitable, because Race is as much of a social construct as Gender. We'd have to be be naive to think it won't continue to grow. Nowadays, we .. those of us privileged enough to, at least .. live in a world of avatars, where you can be what you want online. I think people will be looking to apply that freedom of identity in meat space more and more frequently.

Michael Jackson got there first.

 

[mojo pixy]

Michael Jackson got there first.

Though of course he himself spent his life in denial.

 

[belboid]

You could argue the same about OJ. Once he was successful he kept denying his blackness.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Though of course he himself spent his life in denial.

When did MJ ever deny he was Black? He denied skin bleaching but never claimed to be a White man.

 

[Treacle Toes]

You could argue the same about OJ. Once he was successful he kept denying his blackness.

Eh? When did OJ ever claim to be White?

 

[belboid]

Eh? When did OJ ever claim to be White?

He didn't, but he denied he was was 'black'

Okay, it's a crap comparison

 

[Spymaster]

Eh? When did OJ ever claim to be White?

Google "I'm not black, I'm OJ", though whether he actually said it is debateable.

O.J. Simpson Didn’t Want To Be Associated With Black America. Then He Came To Symbolize It | The Huffington Post

 

[mojo pixy]

When did MJ ever deny he was Black? He denied skin bleaching but never claimed to be a White man.

In denial doesn't always entail direct denials of specific things. It can also signify a broad refusal to admit something others can see quite plainly.

 

[Pickman's model]

Google "I'm not black, I'm OJ", though whether he actually said it is debateable.

O.J. Simpson Didn’t Want To Be Associated With Black America. Then He Came To Symbolize It | The Huffington Post

The opinion poll figures in that article should come with a health warning, pa

 

[Treacle Toes]

Google "I'm not black, I'm OJ", though whether he actually said it is debateable.

O.J. Simpson Didn’t Want To Be Associated With Black America. Then He Came To Symbolize It | The Huffington Post

I am aware of this but I don't believe it's a good comparison with the RD case.

 

[likesfish]

She's definitly messed up.
But somebody cleverer than me could point out the inherant stupidity of building an ID around skin colour especailly when the margins become a bit difficult to tell..

The student leader from goldsmith claiming she was a strong black woman and people getting very upset when some people said doesnt actually look that black springs to mind.


While solidarity when your obviously in the shit is valuable and banding together makes sense at some point does your exculsive ID become more of a problem than a help?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It's more that white people speaking on behalf of black people is frowned upon. So it buys her legitimacy in that context.

 

[Cid]

That is a very interesting interview. I think this growth of the idea of Trans-ness into Race was inevitable, because Race is as much of a social construct as Gender. We'd have to be be naive to think it won't continue to grow. Nowadays, we .. those of us privileged enough to, at least .. live in a world of avatars, where you can be what you want online. I think people will be looking to apply that freedom of identity in meat space more and more frequently.

Surely the idea of trans-gender is that gender isn't just a social construct. That there is a such a things as a female/male brain being kind of in the wrong place. It might acknowledge that the characteristics attributed to gender are social constructs, but must argue that there is an innate sense of male/femaleness which can be displaced.

Using that argument in relation to race is er... disturbing.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Surely the idea of trans-gender is that gender isn't just a social construct. That there is a such a things as a female/male brain being kind of in the wrong place. It might acknowledge that the characteristics attributed to gender are social constructs, but must argue that there is an innate sense of male/femaleness which can be displaced.

Using that argument in relation to race is er... disturbing.

Well there's gender that is a social construct and sex which is biologically determined (not in all cases, but still).

Race is a construct as it suggests humans are different based on skin colour rather than they're all one race.

 

[pengaleng]

fuck brain sex theory, it's crap.

so is the whole 'right brain wrong body' fairytale. << I thought shit like that when I was like 7 - it's simplistic and childish and doesnt really represent the intricacies of gender identity.

 

[camouflage]

Surely the idea of trans-gender is that gender isn't just a social construct. That there is a such a things as a female/male brain being kind of in the wrong place. It might acknowledge that the characteristics attributed to gender are social constructs, but must argue that there is an innate sense of male/femaleness which can be displaced.

Using that argument in relation to race is er... disturbing.

Isn't it also disturbing to say there is such a thing as a "male" and a "female" brain?

Probably hormones like testosterone do make some physiological impact on the brain but it still strikes me as basically what social-conservatives say about why in their opinion women can't drive race-cars or be mathematicians. I don't buy it.... some men are nurturing, some women are aggressive... seems to me that both sexes simply have ample capacities for things we associate in our culture as belonging to one sex or other.

As far as this woman is concerned, I've come to think fair play to her... She wants to be black? Good for her, welcome aboard, the more the merrier. Obviously she can't be taken as seriously as a practitioner of being black as she would had she a full body inking that will never be washed off... but nobody can say she hasn't committed to the idea. I'm suspicious of the concept that a white person could never ever ever ever ever never EVER know what it's like to be a black person because, why.... that would be like a human trying to imagine what it's like to be an Octopus!

Fuck that- she's a human- she immersed herself with no breaks into being perceived by the rest of society as black for years. there's no special handshake, the world seeing her as black (specifically American society seeing her as black) is enough. Race-based reality really is no deeper than being/slapping on a colour and strangers thinking you're that, it's no more real than people seeing you're a thing called "black" or "white" or whatever, and assigning to you the appropriate expectations and presumptions and prejudices. There's no need for four additional limbs and a specific full-body cephalopod brain.

 

[mojo pixy]

Sex is chromosomal, and while it's not necessarily binary, it's hard to choose because whatever ones sex is, it's basically hard-wired (though it still may not fit) ... Gender is imposed, or chosen - and definitely not binary.

As I understand things, Ethnicity is chromosomal and therefore as difficult to choose as ones sex, but culture is something adopted / imposed, and therefore can be chosen. Most of us do this all the time. Race IMO is more closely related to culture than ethnicity, it certainly gets imposed on individuals like culture does.

Personally, I'd say that if it's ok to choose ones gender or even sex, it's ok to choose ones culture, or even ethnicity.

Otherwise then, who gets to deny someone their chosen identity?

 

[camouflage]

She's definitly messed up.

why? why is she definitely messed up? Because only a wronger would be born white but want to be black, and therefore go ahead and live as a black person as much as she can? Is being black so horrible and bad that only a fuck-up would want that on purpose? Is that what you're saying?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Personally, I'd say that if it's ok to choose ones gender or even sex, it's ok to choose ones culture, or even ethnicity.

Culture is a choice. Ethnicity isn't. Who hell gets to choose their parents and where they are born?

 

[Treacle Toes]

why? why is she definitely messed up? Because only a wronger would be born white but want to be black, and therefore go ahead and live as a black person as much as she can? Is being black so horrible and bad that only a fuck-up would want that on purpose? Is that what you're saying?

No. What's fucked up is that she deceived people.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's not fanciful to think that we are predisposed from birth to seek a gender identity. Gender roles seem pretty universal across human societies and to have existed like that for long enough for a genetic component to those roles to have developed. Not one with the content of the roles genetically determined, simply the idea that an infant would look for such a thing in the world, same way they look for language and for some kind of binary moral values.

It is fanciful to think that we are predisposed from birth to seek out a racial identity.

 

[camouflage]

No. What's fucked up is that she deceived people.

I agree, there may be elements of fraud, but the immediate reaction that I and many others had- as if the idea that she went "trans-racial" is in itself some kind of fucked up thing in principal... in my opinion that in itself is an expression of deeply embedded white-supremacism.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not fanciful to think that we are predisposed from birth to seek a gender identity. Gender roles seem pretty universal across human societies and to have existed like that for long enough for a genetic component to those roles to have developed. Not one with the content of the roles genetically determined, simply the idea that an infant would look for such a thing in the world, same way they look for language and for some kind of binary moral values.

It is fanciful to think that we are predisposed from birth to seek out a racial identity.

Does any actual evidence exist to support the claim that there is a genetic component to gender roles?

 

[camouflage]

It's not fanciful to think that we are predisposed from birth to seek a gender identity. Gender roles seem pretty universal across human societies and to have existed like that for long enough for a genetic component to those roles to have developed. Not one with the content of the roles genetically determined, simply the idea that an infant would look for such a thing in the world, same way they look for language and for some kind of binary moral values.

It is fanciful to think that we are predisposed from birth to seek out a racial identity.

We are though predisposed to engage in identity, what's so bad about wanting to choose that. Tom Cruise can play a European who becomes a Samurai... overcoming not actually being born Japanese. God help a white woman who really wants to go method on this being a black American lark.