White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years

[Pickman's model]

I'll rephrase it then. Do replace:
"...until people like you started throwing labels at me..."
with "people who, like you have done earlier with Bahar Mustapha despite the fact that what she calls herself is already public knowledge, have felt within their right to throw labels at me.

and



Hang on a minute... I know my English is not much but I like to think it's good enough most of the time. When I use the term "maybe", it is precisely because I can't tell. It's rather mean of you to use the term "presumptuous" in such a circumstance. No? I have to say though, the intent behind my choice of words was nowhere near an attempt to throw my light or any light into your inner thoughts. It was more in the spirit of an invitation to reflection. It doesn't really matter and I do know my English does need tweaking after all.

two points: where i was going with bm was that the vast majority of the people bm encounters will not know how she describes herself: as you've said above you don't always have the time to give people the full version of your own identity. so she isn't going to be treated by most people according to her self-identity but according to how the people she encounters perceives her. fairly obvious and uncontroversial, i would have thought. secondly, it is interesting that some people can define themselves and you'll accept it: but some people can't - your post 1621 indicates that you should accept rd's statement that she identifies as black now regardless of how she identified in the past. we all continually reinvent ourselves, generally along the lines of what bands we like, what job we do, etc etc. but i'm a bit perturbed that one person's self-definition seems fairly safe while another's is apparently problematick. to a certain extent it is the lack of questioning which allowed rd to get where she did, although i am not certain how you legislate for that sort of situation.

 

[MochaSoul]

I meant a red herring in terms of it being an absolute marker. Of course there are trends but they are not absolutes and should not be treated as such. That's why the game of 'does BM look White' above boiled my piss.

You'll love to hear Rosa Clemente on the subject especially the bit she comments on Rachel Dolezal being opposed to Latinos being involved in the Black lives matter campaign.

 

[MochaSoul]

where i was going with bm was that the vast majority of the people bm encounters will not know how she describes herself: as you've said above you don't always have the time to give people the full version of your own identity. so she isn't going to be treated by most people according to her self-identity but according to how the people she encounters perceives her. fairly obvious and uncontroversial, i would have thought.

Original comment:

oddly, many people (including, surprisingly some people here) contend that bahar mustafa is white.

The news I read at the time went as far alleging she thought herself within her right to spout racist remarks on the strength that minority ethnic people couldn't possibly be considered racist given that racism is a power thing. How could anyone ever miss her description of herself from the remarks she gave?
I was stumped for words at the time Orang mentioned it but really either my understanding of the word "contend" is way, I mean, way off or then my response to that is "How fucking dare you?"

it is interesting that some people can define themselves and you'll accept it: but some people can't - your post 1621 indicates that you should accept rd's statement that she identifies as black now regardless of how she identified in the past.

It is a waste of my time posting around here. But funnily enough, I gave a response about this last Tuesday.

Fine! She could have kept on resenting her white identity and become her reductionist version of "black woman". Where's her solidarity towards the community she wants adopting into? Her using of a mishmash of stories of black lives to make her fictitious father amounts to using the people whom these stories belong like tools. How could she ever claim to feel part of the community while, simultaneously, behaving the slave master complete with full control and rights over their lives and narratives? How come the stealing of an education from another black person and the usurpation of a mic meant for people with a prior claim (supposing she had one) than hers? It's not like she was not clever enough to see that those others she claims brotherhood and sisterhood with would always have a lot more to resent from her race than she could ever argue she had, is it?

And you put a "like" to it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Original comment:



The news I read at the time went as far alleging she thought herself within her right to spout racist remarks on the strength that minority ethnic people couldn't possibly be considered racist given that racism is a power thing. How could anyone ever miss her description of herself from the remarks she gave?
I was stumped for words at the time Orang mentioned it but really either my understanding of the word "contend" is way, I mean, way off or then my response to that is "How fucking dare you?"



It is a waste of my time posting around here. But funnily enough, I gave a response about this last Tuesday.



And you put a "like" to it.

yeh. i haven't contended she's white. as i said in the post you quote i hadn't made the point i was working towards: that no matter how much someone says they're (x) rightly or wrongly they're going to be treated the way their perceived by people who know nothing about them and react to their appearance. i'm sure we've all had occasions when people have misinterpreted who we are because they've perceived us differently than we perceive ourselves - sometimes this can be funny, sometimes confusing and other times downright nasty.

 

[MochaSoul]

that no matter how much someone says they're (x) rightly or wrongly they're going to be treated the way their perceived by people who know nothing about them

You know what? It's part of the burden. We're used to it. A burden that RD very well didn't have to carry as she forced her way into the community by means of exploiting a strength of a community that is so well aware how heavy that burden is to put it on each others shoulders. It doesn't mean its members don't stereotype. However it does mean it's more aware.

i'm sure we've all had occasions when people have misinterpreted who we are because they've perceived us differently than we perceive ourselves - sometimes this can be funny, sometimes confusing and other times downright nasty.

Which is why, I found Rosa Clemente's words enlightening. She described going home after a dinner with RD some months ago and commenting to her husband that "Ah well, she's a white girl!" (or something along those lines) because cases of people like RD are one a penny (something appeals about what they perceive to be "blackness" and there they go. Unless they seek or are lucky enough to have guidance (see: http://alimichael.org/blog/rachel-dolezal-syndrome/), they can never really be true allies even if they think that's what they are doing. RD's main "wrong" is she went the furthest and arrogantly spoke as if a representative of a community she didn't have the humility to go jump through the loops and the hoops to earn the trust of (which is a good possible reason for her deception) while giving herself the right of a voice within and as a member of the very community and one which she had no compunction to use to oppose real allies from joining crucial battles which we can't possibly fight on our own.

 

[MochaSoul]

Sonali Kolhatkar
Why Rachel Dolezal Infuriates Us

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/why_rachel_dolezal_infuriates_us_20150617

 

[8ball]

8ball i actually don't care. I call myself black because I don't have the time or the inclination to have to explain all my heritage to all and sundry and I have the right to do so. It doesn't mean I favour some parts of it or deny other parts. It's just that, in much the same way as this conversation reveals, with the majority out there, black, white or green, it's a fucking waste of time.

I might be being a bit thick, but I'm not sure which of my posts you are addressing with this.

As a side point, we manage to misunderstand each other pretty well on here regardless of skill with the language, but you write in English a lot better than many of native speakers on this site. I wouldn't have guessed it was not your first language without the information you have volunteered in your posts.

 

[Pickman's model]

And you put a "like" to it.

i like a lot of things ... it's no guarantee i've actually read it all

 

[MochaSoul]

i like a lot of things ... it's no guarantee i've actually read it all

It's good to know!

 

[MochaSoul]

I might be being a bit thick, but I'm not sure which of my posts you are addressing with this.

As a side point, we manage to misunderstand each other pretty well on here regardless of skill with the language, but you write in English a lot better than many of native speakers on this site. I wouldn't have guessed it was not your first language without the information you have volunteered in your posts.

It doesn't really matter. You, yourself addressed the point I was referring to later. I was the one who hadn't read all of the subsequent posts.
(Today I've been posting, as I gobbled cups of tea in immense gulps, in between tackling the weedy jungle that my garden has become the last year or so)

About my English: Thanks! I do work hard at it.

 

[MochaSoul]

"You have been awarded a trophy: I LOVE IT!
5 minutes ago"

Thanks Pickman's model

E2a:
You have been awarded a trophy: Trophy Cabinet Owner

It's trophies day!

 

[Casually Red]

before you decide to make assumptions, like the typically arrogant Brit you are.

The door is over there...don't forget your coat .

Flings it at him.

Points .

 

[ManchesterBeth]

The door is over there...don't forget your coat .

Flings it at him.

Points .

Fuck off Strasserite.

 

[Casually Red]

 

[Treacle Toes]

 

[MochaSoul]

"We're not a costume!"

 

[MochaSoul]

Not written in RD case context but relevant in places:
http://soulascriptura.com/2015/06/allies-the-time-for-your-silence-has-expired/

I have a love-hate relationship with that word, ally. I find too often it’s a self-appellation, and one that is often unearned. We should apply the same rule to it as we do to nicknames. You can’t give yourself a nickname; other people give it to you. To give it to yourself comes off as pretentious. It’s the same with self-proclaimed “allies.” I know you mean well, but what about your life demonstrates that you walk in solidarity with others who experience life differently from you because of their skin color, legal status, or sexual orientation? Please don’t call yourself my ally if your uncle’s racist jokes go unchecked in your presence. Please don’t call yourself my ally if you say something insensitive, I call you on it, and all you can do is brush it off and say, “Girl, but you know I love my Black people!” Don’t do it.

 

[Treacle Toes]

What I personally dislike about the word 'ally' is that it reminds me that this shit can feel like 'war'. Psychological, emotional and sometimes, too often, physical warfare. I fucking hate that with all that I am. Not an exclusive feeling when it comes to racism and the historical legacy we are living and trying to get through...I get the rage for injustice, whichever way it presents itself.

 

[Wilf]

Great analysis of the case, but the music had me expecting he was about to burst into song at any moment.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Great analysis of the case, but the music had me expecting he was about to burst into song at any moment.

 

[MochaSoul]

What I personally dislike about the word 'ally' is that it reminds me that this shit can feel like 'war'.

Hard to argue against the idea that it is, indeed, a war, given things like this:

“There are four kinds of people in this world—black people, white people, red necks, and n---rs,” Gosnell advised a black defendant in a November 6, 2003 bond reduction hearing."

-- http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/19/racist-talk-from-dylann-roof-s-judge.html

 

[butchersapron]

Odd word - I looked it up, found a piece on racecraft here in the London Review of Books.

The book is brilliant and there's a really interesting vid here

New interview with these two in the jacobin today with specific emphasis on the dolezal case (really useful thoughts on the difference between identity and identification esp - disappointed by the private school though):

How Race Is Conjured: The fiction of race hides the real source of racism and inequity in America today.

Too many good bits to pull a few emblematic quotes from.

 

[MochaSoul]

New interview with these two in the jacobin today with specific emphasis on the dolezal case (really useful thoughts on the difference between identity and identification esp - disappointed by the private school though):

How Race Is Conjured: The fiction of race hides the real source of racism and inequity in America today.

Too many good bits to pull a few emblematic quotes from.

A good link for dialectician's 'capitalism is white privilege'? thread

 

[Patteran]

New interview with these two in the jacobin today with specific emphasis on the dolezal case (really useful thoughts on the difference between identity and identification esp - disappointed by the private school though):

How Race Is Conjured: The fiction of race hides the real source of racism and inequity in America today.

Too many good bits to pull a few emblematic quotes from.

Thanks for that - identity/identification is a useful distinction, continuing the idea that race, like class, is a relationship, defined by others. And they taught me the word 'sumptuary'.

 

[8ball]

Thanks for that - identity/identification is a useful distinction, continuing the idea that race, like class, is a relationship, defined by others. And they taught me the word 'sumptuary'.

"Sumptuary" sounds like a place that does all you can eat buffets.

Ironic, as it turns out.

 

[TrustmeImaJedi]

It's disrespectful to the heritage of real Black people for a White person to pretend to be Black. And where does it stop?Just because you feel you are something else doesn't mean you are that thing or need to change your body artificially to make yourself in to something you're not.

 

[8ball]

It's disrespectful to the heritage of real Black people for a White person to pretend to be Black. And where does it stop?Just because you feel you are something else doesn't mean you are that thing or need to change your body artificially to make yourself in to something you're not.

I sense more is coming...

 

[Belushi]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/30/meet-the-native-american-rachel-dolezal.html

 

[treefrog]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/30/meet-the-native-american-rachel-dolezal.html

Bloody hell.

 

[MochaSoul]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/30/meet-the-native-american-rachel-dolezal.html

Another one that doesn't see the irony in her actions:

In 1991, Smith wrote an article for Ms. Magazine entitled “For All Those Who Were Indian in a Former Life,” (PDF) in which she chastises white feminists who want to appropriate aspects of Native American culture without experiencing any of the oppression:

“When white ‘feminists’ see how white people have historically oppressed others and how they are coming very close to destroying the earth, they often want to disassociate themselves from their whiteness. They do this by opting to ‘become Indian.’ … Of course, white ‘feminists’ want to become only partly Indian. They do not want to be a part of our struggles for survival against genocide…”

Her bio below the article refers to her as “a Cherokee woman” and “cofounder of Women of All Red Nations (WARN).” At the time, Smith, who was born in San Francisco, may not have had any proof of Native American descent. In other words, she may have been a white feminist trying to “become” Native American herself—a level of hypocrisy that recalls Dolezal’s own criticisms of cultural appropriation.

Or maybe they do and carry on regardless.