White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years

[MochaSoul]

what colour would you say she is, orang utan?

What a shit of a question Pickman's model! If the woman describes herself as being minority ethnic who is anyone to question it and/or deny it especially on the strength of what she looks like?
Really!

 

[8ball]

Moreover, as I said very early in the thread. I have Mixed relatives that appear as 'European' as her in phenotype. Which is why phenotype is a red herring.

They can be misleading but they're not a red herring in general, they just fall into their constituent parts after a small amount of mixing because they are down to a small number of slight genetic variations. We're back at the thing about the varying usages of the word 'race', but it's perfectly feasible for anyone reading those articles relating to Mustafa Bahar and seeing the photographs to see it as a story about a white woman saying 'white men stay away' as opposed to a BME woman saying 'white men stay away, and this makes a difference to how the story will be understood.

No..we did not, given the fact that RD has been using cosmetics to 'appear' Black.

I think this just shows up the fact that phenotype, generally speaking, isn't a red herring. It's a reliable enough indicator of ancestry as a general rule. Otherwise there would be no need for the cosmetics.

I'd expect it to become less and less reliable as people move about over time, but I don't think the reliability or otherwise is of important, just whether people are treated differently by each other/government/institutions based on these markers.

 

[Pickman's model]

What a shit of a question Pickman's model! If the woman describes herself as being minority ethnic who is anyone to question it and/or deny it especially on the strength of what she looks like?
Really!

right. and rachel whatserface, what did she describe herself as? should we all say, she's right, you know, she's black?

 

[Treacle Toes]

phenotype in Culture

phenotype [( fee -nuh-teyep)]

The outward appearance of an organism; the expression of a genotype in the form of traits that can be seen and measured, such as hair or eye color.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/phenotype

 

[Treacle Toes]

I think this just shows up the fact that phenotype, generally speaking, isn't a red herring. It's a reliable enough indicator of ancestry as a general rule. Otherwise there would be no need for the cosmetics.

I meant a red herring in terms of it being an absolute marker. Of course there are trends but they are not absolutes and should not be treated as such. That's why the game of 'does BM look White' above boiled my piss.

 

[MochaSoul]

right. and rachel whatserface, what did she describe herself as? should we all say, she's right, you know, she's black?

Oh wow. Let us all forget how she sued Howard for discrimination for being white.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Oh wow. Let us all forget how she sued Howard for discrimination for being white.

...and her use of skin darkening cosmetics, made up back story and fake Black father... Fucking hell. Are we seriously having to explain this shit again?

 

[Pickman's model]

phenotype in Culture

phenotype [( fee -nuh-teyep)]

The outward appearance of an organism; the expression of a genotype in the form of traits that can be seen and measured, such as hair or eye color.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/phenotype

from the oed:

The sum total of the observable characteristics of an individual, regarded as the consequence of the interaction of the individual's genotype with the environment; a variety of an organism distinguished by observable characteristics rather than underlying genetic features.

from wikipedia:

A phenotype (from Greek phainein, meaning "to show", and typos, meaning "type") is the composite of an organism's observable characteristics or traits, such as its morphology, development, biochemical or physiological properties, phenology, behavior, and products of behavior (such as a bird's nest). Richard Dawkins in 1978[1] and then again in 1982 suggested that bird nests and other built structure such as caddis fly larvae cases and beaver dams are "extended phenotypes". A phenotype results from the expression of an organism's genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and the interactions between the two. When two or more clearly different phenotypes exist in the same population of a species, the species is called polymorph.

so it seems to be more than appearance. and if it is just appearance, iyo, why not say 'appearance' instead of dressing it up in some jargon? unless it is satisfactorily pretentious..

 

[MochaSoul]

Good read for you guys:

http://www.xovain.com/news/how-rach...doubt-light-skinned-black-and-biracial-people
and do listen to Clemente here too: http://ia801501.us.archive.org/35/items/20150616Uprising/2015_06_16_Rosa_Clemente.mp3

 

[Pickman's model]

...and her use of skin darkening cosmetics, made up back story and fake Black father... Fucking hell. Are we seriously having to explain this shit again?

by no means. seeing you say that some people are more equal than others is diverting.

 

[8ball]

I meant a red herring in terms of it being an absolute marker. Of course there are trends but they are not absolutes and should not be treated as such. That's way the game of 'does BM look White' above boiled my piss.

That's understandable, but I (and I'm pretty sure PM) meant it in the sense that wanting to see racism in a particular context (wanting to see racism as something only white people can do*) wasn't the only reason why people would interpret the story as a statement by a white person rather than a BME person (even here I'm having to speak in terms of a binary that we've agreed is silly).

* - which, frankly, must count as the worst superpower ever

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh wow. Let us all forget how she sued Howard for discrimination for being white.

i take it you have always self-identified as you do now, in every respect.

 

[Treacle Toes]

There are numerous ways in which the term phenotype is used...the link I posted shows that if you scroll down and compare usages. I chose to quote the one I was using, for clarity.

So Pickman's model, let's clear this shit up...I called out your 'game', you don't like that but you know full well in which way I am using the term 'phenotype' as I have numerous times before on this thread without you or anyone else questioning it...but now cos I call your pointless game out you start this shit of attacking me as 'pretentious', which BTW simply serves to remind me what a fickle, pedantic, some-time-ish person you are. This is the reason I don't on the whole engage with you around here and haven't done for a long time. So now, you have done what you do to remind me, I will remind you again. Get stuffed.

 

[Orang Utan]

Don't bother. He doesn't want to learn or share knowledge, just pettily unravel.

 

[Pickman's model]

There are numerous ways in which the term phenotype is used...the link I posted shows that if you scroll down and compare usages. I chose to quote the one I was using.

So Pickman's model, let's clear this shit up...I called out your 'game', you don't like that but you know full well in which way I am using the term 'phenotype' as I have numerous times before on this thread without you or anyone else questioning it...but now cos I call your pointless game out you start this shit of attacking me as 'pretentious', which BTW simply serves to remind me what a fickle, pedantic, some-time-ish person you are. This is the reason I don't on the whole engage with you around here and haven't done for a long time. So now, you have done what you do to remind me, I will remind you again. Get stuffed.

you don't deal well with being questioned, do you.

 

[8ball]

so it seems to be more than appearance. and if it is just appearance, iyo, why not say 'appearance' instead of dressing it up in some jargon? unless it is satisfactorily pretentious..

It's about the external expression of a genetic variation.

The reason it is about appearance in the context in which we're talking here is that variations in appearance is pretty much all these genotypic variations amount to (you could talk about measurable variance in resistance to sunburn or whatever but I think we'd both agree that would be splitting hairs outside a biology lesson).

It is a convenient usage because it neatly separates those elements of 'race' that are based on biological ancestry from those elements that relate to culture, shared history etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

Don't bother. He doesn't want to learn or share knowledge, just pettily unravel.

while i may not be rutita1's greatest fan, it pains me to see her patronised by you.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's about the external expression of a genetic variation.

The reason it is about appearance in the context in which we're talking here is that variations in appearance is pretty much all these genotypic variations amount to (you could talk about measurable variance in resistance to sunburn or whatever but I think we'd both agree that would be splitting hairs outside a biology lesson).

It is a convenient usage because it neatly separates those elements of 'race' that are based on biological ancestry from those elements that relate to culture, shared history etc.

thank you for your response, which shows me where i was going wrong.

 

[Treacle Toes]

you don't deal well with being questioned, do you.

...another attempt to misrepresent me and attack because you yourself don't like to be questioned or 'told' anything by anyone. My response is still, get stuffed.

 

[Pickman's model]

...another attempt to misrepresent me and attack because you yourself don't like to be questioned or 'told' anything by anyone. My response is still, get stuffed.

i wasn't expecting you to change your response. i am quite happy to be questioned and told things. but i draw the line at being 'told' things.

 

[8ball]

Good read for you guys:

http://www.xovain.com/news/how-rach...doubt-light-skinned-black-and-biracial-people
and do listen to Clemente here too: http://ia801501.us.archive.org/35/items/20150616Uprising/2015_06_16_Rosa_Clemente.mp3

I'll listen to the mp3 later, but I have plenty of similar stories to what was described in the article - childhood conversations that went like:

"Who was the black lady at your birthday party?"
"Who do you mean?"
"The one in the white jumper who took us to the pool."
"Oh... I think you mean my aunty.."
"How is she related to you?"
"She's my Mum's sister."
<whispering now> "Adopted sister?"
"No, just sister."
"Oh.... but you're not black... are you?"

Plenty of other examples, sometimes if my hair is a little grown-out and I have a bit of a tan (I tan quickly) someone I know casually might mention that out of the corner of their eye I looked like a black person for a moment. Then I mention that I'm a quarter black and they become bizarrely apologetic and I'm not actually sure whether even they know what they're apologizing for.

It's partly the binary category thing, but it's also simply true that the markers are reliable enough for most kinds of social negotiation, so people are thrown off their game when an exception comes along.

edit because I forgot to address it: I should add that I do understand how this Dolezal case might not be helpful for those people who are perceived as claiming an identification that does not match an immediate subjective assessment of their appearance.

 

[Treacle Toes]

It's about the external expression of a genetic variation.

The reason it is about appearance in the context in which we're talking here is that variations in appearance is pretty much all these genotypic variations amount to (you could talk about measurable variance in resistance to sunburn or whatever but I think we'd both agree that would be splitting hairs outside a biology lesson).

It is a convenient usage because it neatly separates those elements of 'race' that are based on biological ancestry from those elements that relate to culture, shared history etc.

He knew what I meant. It was simply an opportunity to kick back at me in his usual pedantic way/attacking me because he can't stand me questioning anything he says. This is why we ignore each other mostly and have done for a long time.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

thank you for your response, which shows me where i was going wrong.

Apology, perhaps, for calling someone out as pretentious and being wrong?

 

[Pickman's model]

He knew what I meant. It was simply an opportunity to kick back at me in his usual pedantic way/attacking at me because he can't stand me questioning anything he says. This is why we ignore each other mostly and have done for a long time.

i am sorry for our disagreement above. while we don't get on, i do read your posts with interest, and as you know from the 'likes' you've had, i quite frequently agree with you. you may say 'get stuffed' but it's better than the 'fuck offs' of a couple of years ago. who knows, by 2017 we may be on civil terms.

 

[Pickman's model]

Apology, perhaps, for calling someone out as pretentious and being wrong?

if you offered an apology every time you'd been wrong - let alone every time you've been pretentious - you'd never have time for anything but an endless stream of mea culpas.

 

[8ball]

He knew what I meant. It was simply an opportunity to kick back at me in his usual pedantic way/attacking me because he can't stand me questioning anything he says. This is why we ignore each other mostly and have done for a long time.

It's clear that you both have some history that means where one says something that could be taken a couple of ways, the other doesn't automatically gravitate towards the 'good faith' option...

 

[Pickman's model]

It's clear that you both have some history that means where one says something that could be taken a couple of ways, the other doesn't automatically gravitate towards the 'good faith' option...

that would be so dull

 

[MochaSoul]

i take it you have always self-identified as you do now, in every respect.

We're not talking in every respect, Pickman's model. Race is something I didn't even think about until people like you started throwing labels at me except when *I* decide to pick a label of my own volition you still feel within your right to question or deny it from me even as you label me. If you had read my posts with the seriousness which I put in them then you'd know the last thing I'd want would be to label myself. When I do call myself black, it's not, as you seem to think, because I actually identify with such a label. I use it in a socio-political context that puts a burden on me that I have no control over and, consequently, forces me to have to stand up for myself and things I should take for granted like the right to self-determination and the right to lead a more or less unencumbered life. Perhaps you'll be surprised but the question "Who are you?" never lead me to think of anything to do with race outside of sharing that burden with a whole load of people. Maybe, you do think of yourself as white.

8ball i actually don't care. I call myself black because I don't have the time or the inclination to have to explain all my heritage to all and sundry and I have the right to do so. It doesn't mean I favour some parts of it or deny other parts. It's just that, in much the same way as this conversation reveals, with the majority out there, black, white or green, it's a fucking waste of time.

 

[Pickman's model]

We're not talking in every respect, Pickman's model. Race is something I didn't even think about until people like you started throwing labels at me except when *I* decide to pick a label of my own volition you still feel within your right to question or deny it from me even as you label me. If you had read my posts with the seriousness which I put in them then you'd know the last thing I'd want would be to label myself. When I do call myself black, it's not, as you seem to think, because I actually identify with such a label. I use it in a socio-political context that puts a burden on me that I have no control over and, consequently, forces me to have to stand up for myself and things I should take for granted like the right to self-determination and the right to lead a more or less unencumbered life. Perhaps you'll be surprised but the question "Who are you?" never lead me to think of anything to do with race outside of sharing that burden with a whole load of people. Maybe, you do think of yourself as white.

8ball i actually don't care. I call myself black because I don't have the time or the inclination to have to explain all my heritage to all and sundry and I have the right to do so. It doesn't mean I favour some parts of it or deny other parts. It's just that, in much the same way as this conversation reveals, with the majority out there, black, white or green, it's a fucking waste of time.

i have not thrown any labels at you. i don't care how you labelyourself be it black green blue spurs fan blondie fan pebble fan, whatever. you don't know how i think of myself and it's somewhat presumptuous of you to say you know when you don't.

 

[MochaSoul]

i have not thrown any labels at you.

I'll rephrase it then. Do replace:
"...until people like you started throwing labels at me..."
with "people who, like you have done earlier with Bahar Mustapha despite the fact that what she calls herself is already public knowledge, have felt within their right to throw labels at me.

and

it's somewhat presumptuous of you to say you know when you don't.

Hang on a minute... I know my English is not much but I like to think it's good enough most of the time. When I use the term "maybe", it is precisely because I can't tell. It's rather mean of you to use the term "presumptuous" in such a circumstance. No? I have to say though, the intent behind my choice of words was nowhere near an attempt to throw my light or any light into your inner thoughts. It was more in the spirit of an invitation to reflection. It doesn't really matter and I do know my English does need tweaking after all.