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White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years

For me, unions are the best vehicle to get none left people organised around ideas of collective bargaining etc. Although some people use it for personal gain, which happens unfortunately under atomised Thatcherism, it draws people away from individualist bargaining.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Pretty much a theory of despair if it's taken to mean that merely by forming a union you are colluding with capital. That's why it sounds like nonsense on stilts.

Taking my real-world example, London's couriers have started a campaign to shame clients into asking the courier companies how they treat their workers. They are taking direct action to try to improve the lot of couriers, and risking their jobs to do so in many cases. To call that bourgeois is just plain daft.
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out of curiosity how would you say a union - which when recognised is engaged in negotiations with employers - is not "colluding with capital"?
 
littlebabyjesus said:
The function of uunion can vary. One function is to provide a collective voice for workers in a struggle for better conditions. And in its formation that is all the courier union is about. So does your theory stand up to this real life example? I say it doesn't, that calling such actions bourgeois is meaningless.
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If you would actually desist with your kneejerk appeal to some kind of vague notion of solidarity we could perhaps get somewhere...

When workers vote for a racist party are they bourgeois? unequivocally not.

Are the workers who comprise of and join such a union, bourgeois? Again, no. Is the union a bourgeois structure? Undoubtedly, and history and analysis of capital proves this. It is you who is floundering about with no way to back up your ideas.
 
IE: LBJ's idea is to just analyse class struggle, the commodity form and mystification, without understanding why things behave in the way they do when subject to capital. It's Althusserian overdeterminist bollocks, thoroughly eurocentric and Stalinist to boot and anti -working-class in its orientation. The anointed vanguards will shift the unions to the left and/or replace the union bureaucracies. Like we haven't heard this shit from Trots before, like a tramp over a bag of cold chips. Wouldn't be funny if union bureaucracies weren't such a small crust of union makeup, smaller than the so-called labour aristocracy. As you were.
 
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Pickman's model said:
out of curiosity how would you say a union - which when recognised is engaged in negotiations with employers - is not "colluding with capital"?
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Surely the issue is with the representative nature of most trades unions (ie elected representatives negotiating with employers)? As opposed to a union form where workers organise together/use direct action and no member becomes a representative to mediate or negotiate on behalf of other members?
 
dialectician said:
IE: LBJ's idea is to just analyse class struggle, the commodity form and mystification, without understanding why things behave in the way they do when subject to capital. It's Althusserian overdeterminist bollocks, thoroughly eurocentric and Stalinist to boot and anti -working-class in its orientation. The anointed vanguards will shift the unions to the left and/or replace the union bureaucracies. Like we haven't heard this shit from Trots before, like a tramp over a bag of cold chips. Wouldn't be funny if union bureaucracies weren't such a small crust of union makeup, smaller than the so-called labour aristocracy. As you were.
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You're right, in theory. In reality the wc fares better with them than without them.
 
Sorry to get away from the union discussion but has Dolezal's Christian fundamentalist upbringing been mentioned? Weirdly, one of the things she probably isn't lying about is that she may well have spent some of her childhood in a tipi, and people who knew the family state she was probably sincere in trying to get her siblings away from physical violence in the form of Christian child "training". https://homeschoolersanonymous.word...dolezals-christian-fundamentalist-upbringing/
Doesn't excuse of course, but maybe a clue to where the desire to escape her parents and the emotional carnage started from.
 
MochaSoul said:
Clearly, knowing something in academic terms is a completely different to living the experience of that something. But she will persist in claiming the "blackness experience" vacuous as such a claim is against her repertoire.
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It would be helpful to know which black experience she is referring to or does she think there is only one? She appears not to have tried to adopt mine unless she has taken to shaving her head and watching lower league English football teams.
 
BlackArab said:
It would be helpful to know which black experience she is referring to or does she think there is only one? She appears not to have tried to adopt mine unless she has taken to shaving her head and watching lower league English football teams.
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Something tells me it wasn't the black experience of an Angolan person in Angola, in Portugal or in Britain either. :D
 
dialectician said:
IE: LBJ's idea is to just analyse class struggle, the commodity form and mystification, without understanding why things behave in the way they do when subject to capital. It's Althusserian overdeterminist bollocks, thoroughly eurocentric and Stalinist to boot and anti -working-class in its orientation. The anointed vanguards will shift the unions to the left and/or replace the union bureaucracies. Like we haven't heard this shit from Trots before, like a tramp over a bag of cold chips. Wouldn't be funny if union bureaucracies weren't such a small crust of union makeup, smaller than the so-called labour aristocracy. As you were.
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Best. Post. Ever.
 
BlackArab said:
'all he got was the evils' was that it? Not having a go but imagine if the situation was reversed do you think the most he would have encountered was hostile looks? I hope he had the chance to experience different areas, America is no more or less fucked up than Britain and this type of story is common enough here.
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Thank you for that insight . Not for even the minutest second had I ever...even remotely...considered the situation in reverse . Fuck me...that's an insight and a half . White racists !!! Christ on a facking bike ..thats outrageous...white racists ?? Imagine that....i couldnt...so thanks again . I hope there's people looking out for this rarely observed social phenomenon. It's obviously slipped under my radar so I can't thank you enough for pointing it out to me . Cheers...you're a gem . A fucking diamond . Insights like that just blow us all away .thanks again .

And yeah..it would have been worse in reverse , cos as you point out, white racists are even way more violent and worse than black ones .. It's facking genetic, innit. Cant help themselves .

I need a lie down now . Too much insight .
 
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Rutita1 said:
I didn't see the post or the vid. Also, I admit to holding grudges in the sense that I do remember that people piss me off and why. I believe you have disappointed me in the past with your little jokes. So...here we are then.
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No mrs..there you are . Remember that holding a grudge means someone is renting space in your head . Personally I haven't the remotest interest . None in the slightest . Not an ounce . But it's your head and not mine so feel free .
 
Casually Red said:
No mrs..there you are . Remember that holding a grudge means someone is renting space in your head . Personally I haven't the remotest interest . None in the slightest . Not an ounce . But it's your head and not mine so feel free .
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It's Miss actually....and yes I am free to remember who, will resort to what, to be whatever. You don't care. You have made that clear before now. I will continue to remember that when you cast generalised disappointment at other people around here for something you think they should have done. I will remember what you did do and why that disappointed me.
 
dialectician said:
IE: LBJ's idea is to just analyse class struggle, the commodity form and mystification, without understanding why things behave in the way they do when subject to capital. It's Althusserian overdeterminist bollocks, thoroughly eurocentric and Stalinist to boot and anti -working-class in its orientation. The anointed vanguards will shift the unions to the left and/or replace the union bureaucracies. Like we haven't heard this shit from Trots before, like a tramp over a bag of cold chips. Wouldn't be funny if union bureaucracies weren't such a small crust of union makeup, smaller than the so-called labour aristocracy. As you were.
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Fuck me this is bollocks.

You said

They are bourgeois in formation.
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about a union you hadn't heard of before, by their nature as all unions are.

This is utter nonsense.

I want you or butchers to come back and defend this phrase. Your theory is so far removed from the actual lived world, it's really not funny. It's really fucking annoying. Particularly as you see fit to patronise me because of your stupid theory.

Not theory, lived reality - lived courage.
 
dialectician said:
, like a tramp over a bag of cold chips.
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Wtf ???

Have a fucking word with yourself . Ffs .

Eta

It's seriously bad when I'm telling you this . Fucks sake man it's one slip through the cracks for anyone on low wage or benefits . Your dialectics aren't worth fuck all if that's your attitude .
 
btw this is nothing to do with being a 'trot', whatever that is. hiding behind that kind of abuse is shit. Totally shit. It's avoiding the issue about what self-organisation can be, and is. You know, in the real world, where people are being shat on and want to do something about it. Where does that fit in with your theory?
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Fuck me this is bollocks.

You said



about a union you hadn't heard of before, by their nature as all unions are.

This is utter nonsense.

I want you or butchers to come back and defend this phrase. Your theory is so far removed from the actual lived world, it's really not funny. It's really fucking annoying. Particularly as you see fit to patronise me because of your stupid theory.

Not theory, lived reality - lived courage.
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Could it happen on a discussion of theory thread please?
 
littlebabyjesus said:
btw this is nothing to do with being a 'trot', whatever that is. hiding behind that kind of abuse is shit. Totally shit. It's avoiding the issue about what self-organisation can be, and is. You know, in the real world, where people are being shat on and want to do something about it. Where does that fit in with your theory?
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Feudalism was a profoundly unequal society. That didn't mean that we believed that proletarian revolution would be possible under feudalism. 100 years of struggles have proven the left communist position correct, not yours.

Once again I repeat: your politics is a politics of ethics and emotion and little else. Disprove my theory if you're so inclined. You won't be able to. and that's why you're floundering about with appeals to morals.
 
Casually Red said:
Wtf ???

Have a fucking word with yourself . Ffs .

Eta

It's seriously bad when I'm telling you this . Fucks sake man it's one slip through the cracks for anyone on low wage or benefits . Your dialectics aren't worth fuck all if that's your attitude .
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Use your fucking brain, man.

Here's what I said

Like we haven't heard this shit from Trots before, like a tramp over a bag of cold chips.
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That is in no way denigrating people on low wage or benefits (of which I am one, before you decide to make assumptions, like the typically arrogant Brit you are.) I was saying that Trots put themselves in a position where they treat themselves as if a bag of cold chips is their saving grace. This is both insulting as most of them are m/c and nearly all the actions they take end up curtailing working-class self-organisation and serving the economic left-wing of capital.
 
dialectician said:
Use your fucking brain, man.

Here's what I said



That is in no way denigrating people on low wage or benefits (of which I am one, before you decide to make assumptions, like the typically arrogant Brit you are.) I was saying that Trots put themselves in a position where they treat themselves as if a bag of cold chips is their saving grace. This is both insulting as most of them are m/c and nearly all the actions they take end up curtailing working-class self-organisation and serving the economic left-wing of capital.
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there are sections of the middle class for whom a bag of cold chips is a rare delicacy
 
Pickman's model said:
good to have confirmation of that point
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I particularly like:
There is absolutely no parallel, between Caitlyn’s story, and Rachel’s story.
One, is a story about deception, where even when faced with the truth, the person in question boldly denies it. The other, is a story about coming to terms with the truth, and being able to love and embrace yourself enough, to live honestly, and be honest with the people around you. Whether you agree or disagree with trans people’s lives, being able to come forward and state that this is who you are, is a statement of honesty, and it takes a lot of guts.
This is not a world built for trans people. While the same can be said for black men and women, for Rachel Dolezal, it was a choice. Trans people do not choose to be transgender.
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