what's wrong with economics

[DotCommunist]

Its completely voluntary.

voluntary starvation

 

[7000Miles]

voluntary starvation

Can you expand on that?

 

[fredfelt]

The 'problem' is not with economics but with people. Economic systems come and go. Humans consume what they can produce and then move on. Economists, idealists and theorists try to make sense of it all and sometimes make their mark.

Something I read from John Grey recently

"The most serious problems are not resolved...the problems facing the world today will not be overcome by any kind of decision. Instead there will be a shift of scene, an alteration in the global landscape that no one can forsee or control, as a result which difficulties that are presently intractable will be left behind."​

 

[DotCommunist]

All the wealth is not all going straight to the top and poor people are left with nothing. Everyone involved benefits

tell it to the people doing 18 hour shifts in SEZ's and having to accept boss rape. literal.

 

[ska invita]

Can you expand on that?

no

 

[DotCommunist]

Rich people pay the vast majority of taxes in the UK and just about every country on the planet. The term "spreading the wealth" is a fancy phrase for "stealing people's money" to be honest.

nope, VAT falls heaviest on the poorest for many reasons. You are a wingnut

 

[ska invita]

Economists, idealists and theorists try to make sense of it all and sometimes make their mark.

Economists are not analysing the world around them, they are directly shaping it

 

[butchersapron]

The 'problem' is not with economics but with people. Economic systems come and go. Humans consume what then can produce and then move on. Economists, idealists and theorists try to make sense of it all and sometimes make their mark.

Something I read from John Grey recently

"The most serious problems are not resolved...the problems facing the world today will not be overcome by any kind of decision. Instead there will be a shift of scene, an alteration in the global landscape that no one can forsee or control, as a result which difficulties that are presently intractable will be left behind."​

Nice of him to decide that.

 

[DotCommunist]

Competition increases competitiveness which results in a better service

it might possibly, but in practise it reducts to monopolies and all the iniquities therein

 

[butchersapron]

Economists, idealists and theorists try to make sense of it all and sometimes make their mark.

What have you put these three together btw? Bin Laden Friedman and Pincohet right?

 

[DotCommunist]

Who takes the lot? Which group are you talking about?

And there will never be "cheap rail or healthcare", because it is totally tax payer provided for. Other people are forced to spend money on something they may not use, so money is being spent irregardless.

the ultra rich political and social establishment- do you deny that they exist? or that their money comes from the sweat of others?

The idea of social democratic provisions from tax is well documented as cheaper than the alternatives. Only rich misanthropes get the hump about having to contribute to a system that looks after a nieghbours broken leg you society hating freak

 

[7000Miles]

it might possibly, but in practise it reducts to monopolies and all the iniquities therein

If a monopoly exists it is only because the government is the sole provider of a service or consumers are satisfied enough with a product that they will not buy a competitors. Monopolies are not always a bad thing.

 

[DotCommunist]

the government is behind them.

yes the government in thrall to the demands of neoliberal capitalism

Again, who is "their" when you say "this is their economics"?

you. You and your apologia for the outright murder of my class. Do you deny that some make great fortunes from the eath of others?

oh and pinochet in t-minus 10 posts

 

[DotCommunist]

If a monopoly exists it is only because the government is the sole provider of a service or consumers are satisfied enough with a product that they will not buy a competitors. Monopolies are not always a bad thing.

so microsoft never got into trouble for monopolistic practises when it bundled IE within its sale of the latest OS?

right

 

[7000Miles]

the ultra rich political and social establishment- do you deny that they exist? or that their money comes from the sweat of others?

Not all rich people get rich out of thin air. A lot of people have worked hard to get where their are. They have not gotten money solely "from the sweat of others". I think the government has too much of a hand in decision making+business dealings, and because of that certain business groups are allowed immoral decisions in public life.

The idea of social democratic provisions from tax is well documented as cheaper than the alternatives. Only rich misanthropes get the hump about having to contribute to a system that looks after a nieghbours broken leg you society hating freak

Raising the income tax will have many consequences , e.g:
-Small and medium enterprises, not just rich companies are harmed. They may have to close up shop.
-Rich people leave and move to tax havens
-The income tax, in itself, is theft.

 

[DotCommunist]

they already operate within tax havens and swetheart HMRC deals here you wingnut- there is no better place to flee to

 

[DotCommunist]

Can you expand on that?

If you don't wish to sell your labour and have the surplus skimmed into the pockets of the rich you can always starve.

 

[Frances Lengel]

Because "economists" practice a belief that the "economy" is a natural process, in that way they are no different from believers of "sky pixies" that have laid down the way we are to live our lives.

This guy's nailed it - People are all too willing to sacrifice everything at the altar of the market. Markets were a thing invented by people. To make life easier originally.

I'm not religious but "The sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath" seems applicable here. Or losing sight of the wood for the trees.

 

[7000Miles]

If you don't wish to sell your labour and have the surplus skimmed into the pockets of the rich you can always starve.

So do you expect everything to be handed to you on a silver platter? You are not entitled to food, shelter etc. for simply existing.

 

[Treacle Toes]

So do you expect everything to be handed to you on a silver platter? You are not entitled to food, shelter etc. for simply existing.

 

[DotCommunist]

So do you expect everything to be handed to you on a silver platter? You are not entitled to food, shelter etc. for simply existing.

I exist in a society where I am ruled and taxed as have my forebears before me for a long long time. I consent to be ruled (sort of) and policed. Should I decide to strike out on my own all the land is owned by crown or private individual. So yes, I am entitled to food and shelter because if I simply decide to take it I will be thrown in jail.

 

[Frances Lengel]

So do you expect everything to be handed to you on a silver platter? You are not entitled to food, shelter etc. for simply existing.

Well, seeing as were human and can, at least to a point, shape our own destinies, both individually and as a species, do you not reckon it makes sense to do our best collectively to make sure no one goes without those things (food, shelter etc), that you're so adamant no one's entitled to? If we can alleviate each other's suffering (christ, am I writing this, what a soft wanker) then surely that's what we're human for. If we're for anything. Which we're not. But if we've got to invent a purpose for ourselves then making each others lives as easy as possible seems a fairly honourable one to me.

 

[Dillinger4]

So do you expect everything to be handed to you on a silver platter? You are not entitled to food, shelter etc. for simply existing.

What do you think of Ayn Rand?

 

[youngian]

Raising the income tax will have many consequences , e.g:
-Small and medium enterprises, not just rich companies are harmed. They may have to close up shop.
-Rich people leave and move to tax havens
-The income tax, in itself, is theft.

You mean may rather than will. Its not as if businessmen are rushing over to countries like Greece that have a moribund tax collecting system coupled with a culture of avoidance. Neither is everyone packing their bags for efficiently run tax havens like Monaco. Again people don't do what you want or expect them to do.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So where are we at here and why?.

Arguably, asking what's wrong with the discipline of economics because economic relations amongst people are bad, is like asking what's wrong with the science of biology, because many people are generally in bad health.

 

[7000Miles]

Well, seeing as were human and can, at least to a point, shape our own destinies, both individually and as a species, do you not reckon it makes sense to do our best collectively to make sure no one goes without those things (food, shelter etc), that you're so adamant no one's entitled to? If we can alleviate each other's suffering (christ, am I writing this, what a soft wanker) then surely that's what we're human for. If we're for anything. Which we're not. But if we've got to invent a purpose for ourselves then making each others lives as easy as possible seems a fairly honourable one to me.

I said no one is entitled to these things. I never said people should have to go without these things. I just think that because these things come at the expense of someone else, they are not rights as such. I do agree with everything else you wrote though.

What do you think of Ayn Rand?

I've never read any of her work.

 

[DotCommunist]

because these things come at the expense of someone else

the entirety of human existence comes about in shared 'expense' only some of us don't obsessively audit the situation and accept that as a social species interdependency is a given.

 

[DotCommunist]

Arguably, asking what's wrong with the discipline of economics because economic relations amongst people are bad, is like asking what's wrong with the science of biology, because many people are generally in bad health.

It would be so if economics was a hard science but as it isn't the analogy doesn't hold

 

[fractionMan]

If a monopoly exists it is only because the government is the sole provider of a service or consumers are satisfied enough with a product that they will not buy a competitors. Monopolies are not always a bad thing.

lol

 

[seventh bullet]

You are not entitled to food, shelter etc. for simply existing.

Yes I am. I want back what the rich have stolen not just from me, but from everyone else.

The silver platter is superfluous, that could be melted and put to other uses.