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What's the difference? Anthony Ekundayo Lennon v Rachel Dolezal

A pretty good test of the attitudes of others might be eg where a bus-driver in Montgomery Alabama would have made Anthony or Rachel sit in 1955, both without any make-up. Or who might have been reclassified under apartheid. Some people were reclassified three or four times during their lives. It wasn't cut-and-dried for white supremacy who got into their grubby club.

This makes the point that the whole business of classification by race is dodgy:
Untitled Document

I don't think the test of what you or another person would have described the person as (let's say to the police) is any good. That would depend on any number of factors that would influence/prejudice the description.

I suppose if you support the idea that redress is in order and that these efforts to correct imbalances in some jobs are worthy ones, then you can't start behaving rather too like the attitudes that caused the problem in the first place and these things simply have to be allowed to slide. There aren't dozens of people pulling this fast one, if that's what it is.
 
JuanTwoThree said:
I don't think the test of what you or another person would have described the person as (let's say to the police) is any good. That would depend on any number of factors that would influence/prejudice the description.
Click to expand...

Indeed. I'm reading a book about the Free State of Jones at the moment which deals in part with a court case in '40s Mississippi (thanks spell check) over a white presenting man who was found guilty of breaking the colour line by marrying a white woman.
"Although Davis was descended from Newt and his wife, Serena, both of whom were white, he was also the great-grandson of Rachel Knight, a former slave of Newt’s grandfather. And although Davis was white in appearance, because of his descent from Rachel, he was defined as black by his white neighbors."
The author has another article on this legal construction of race in which some Judges in 1877 North Carolina thought that by simply carrying a child who may be of mixed race the white mother also became mixed.
 
Mordi said:
Indeed. I'm reading a book about the Free State of Jones at the moment which deals in part with a court case in '40s Mississippi (thanks spell check) over a white presenting man who was found guilty of breaking the colour line by marrying a white woman.
"Although Davis was descended from Newt and his wife, Serena, both of whom were white, he was also the great-grandson of Rachel Knight, a former slave of Newt’s grandfather. And although Davis was white in appearance, because of his descent from Rachel, he was defined as black by his white neighbors."
The author has another article on this legal construction of race in which some Judges in 1877 North Carolina thought that by simply carrying a child who may be of mixed race the white mother also became mixed.
Click to expand...

The ODR in all it's racist, institutionalised glory at work.'Black' blood/heritage characterised as a pollutant and a poison that needs to be counted/exposed regardless of it's percentage, to guard against the 'purity' of 'Whiteness' being compromised.
 
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Mordi said:
Indeed. I'm reading a book about the Free State of Jones at the moment which deals in part with a court case in '40s Mississippi (thanks spell check) over a white presenting man who was found guilty of breaking the colour line by marrying a white woman.
"Although Davis was descended from Newt and his wife, Serena, both of whom were white, he was also the great-grandson of Rachel Knight, a former slave of Newt’s grandfather. And although Davis was white in appearance, because of his descent from Rachel, he was defined as black by his white neighbors."
The author has another article on this legal construction of race in which some Judges in 1877 North Carolina thought that by simply carrying a child who may be of mixed race the white mother also became mixed.
Click to expand...

A good example of race being created by racism, rather than racism being founded on a biological fact of race. Through racecraft, what was racism by one group becomes the race of another group. Davis is black (as a biological fact), as opposed to Davis' neighbours enacting racism towards Davis (their behaviour).
 
He is mixed race:

Anthony Ekundayo Lennon on being accused of 'passing' as a black man: 'It felt like an assassination'

"I ask him about the news he mentioned when he first called me a couple of months ago. Lennon smiles and whips out an envelope containing the results of an ancestry DNA test he recently took. It shows his genetic makeup, country by country: 46% Irish and Scottish, 22% from England, Wales and north-western Europe. He points me to the last stat: 32% West African. The science of ancestry DNA testing is not infallible, but it feels like a significant result. Does he feel vindicated? “All it’s done for me is confirmed in data what I’ve always known.” Some time in the future, he will trace those African roots right back through his family. But for now only one thing matters to him – that they are there."

So the discussion on here is redundant.
 
AlanAlanant said:
He is mixed race:

Anthony Ekundayo Lennon on being accused of 'passing' as a black man: 'It felt like an assassination'

"I ask him about the news he mentioned when he first called me a couple of months ago. Lennon smiles and whips out an envelope containing the results of an ancestry DNA test he recently took. It shows his genetic makeup, country by country: 46% Irish and Scottish, 22% from England, Wales and north-western Europe. He points me to the last stat: 32% West African. The science of ancestry DNA testing is not infallible, but it feels like a significant result. Does he feel vindicated? “All it’s done for me is confirmed in data what I’ve always known.” Some time in the future, he will trace those African roots right back through his family. But for now only one thing matters to him – that they are there."

So the discussion on here is redundant.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's all that important really, is it, DNA results. Racism and race is a social phenomenon, getting bogged down in what % DNA is this or that rather than recognising it's about the social experience of prejudice is basically conceding the ground to the 14 words types. Surely. If I did a DNA test I'd have a fair old chunk of irish and jewish I think but have I experienced anti irish or anti jewish prejudice, have I fuck, worst I've had is a few dickheads going on about sheep and crossbows after midnight
 
AlanAlanant said:
He is mixed race:
Click to expand...

Those tests are about as reliable as horoscopes.
A paternity test would have a much higher likelihood of pointing towards his ancestry.

Though I don't think ancestry is the most important factor in his case. He's had a lifetime of being a man with physical characteristics which have led others to react to him a certain way, and which have shaped his experience. Racism doesn't come from a test tube.
 
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AlanAlanant said:
He is mixed race:

Anthony Ekundayo Lennon on being accused of 'passing' as a black man: 'It felt like an assassination'

"I ask him about the news he mentioned when he first called me a couple of months ago. Lennon smiles and whips out an envelope containing the results of an ancestry DNA test he recently took. It shows his genetic makeup, country by country: 46% Irish and Scottish, 22% from England, Wales and north-western Europe. He points me to the last stat: 32% West African. The science of ancestry DNA testing is not infallible, but it feels like a significant result. Does he feel vindicated? “All it’s done for me is confirmed in data what I’ve always known.” Some time in the future, he will trace those African roots right back through his family. But for now only one thing matters to him – that they are there."

So the discussion on here is redundant.
Click to expand...
what a curious first post
 
I don't think it's for me as a white man to define who is Black or not. What I would suggest is that the DNA test taking all caveats into account - shows that his mum or a grand mother might be fibbing about who they have slept with at some point.

I have quite a few mixed race cousins and I know the ones who pass as white have an easier life than their own siblings who don't.
 
JudithB said:
Did this get any traction here?

https://www.gaystarnews.com/article...-in-labour-party-to-a-straight-man/#gs.3fm9sq

I know this wouldn't have got any Labour row after transgender woman Lily Madigan stands for women's officer in Deptford

Identity politics is identity politics.

But you only get to complain if you have a penis ;)
Click to expand...

Don't know what either of those have to do with this thread, but fwiw a search which takes around three seconds would show you 64 prior references to Lily Madigan on these boards.
 
Dom Traynor said:
Fair enough obviously that definition was me about me and is backed up by society
Click to expand...

It's one of those recurring battles at the moment; to what degree society's definition of a person should overrule, or be overruled by, a person's own declarations. With race, it still seems to be society that has the upper hand, whereas with gender we are very much in a state of flux.
 
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