Weds 1st April: G20 protests - discussion, reaction and chat

[e19896]

This is what bothers me about your posts enumbers - you object to others based not (only) on what they think and/or do, but just who they are.

Your exclusivity labels friends as enemies, and appears driven by some sort of martyr complex. It turns you into a reflection of those you hate. There is no Working Class Master Race; we're all just people.

a martyr complex wrong person, neither do I hate such an ugly word and turn of comment, it very much plays into how people see the working class, agreed turns you into a reflection of those you dislike, I never desire, aspire to be like The Middle Class, this not about politics of envy neither do i desire more, I have all I need in life, I have a life of little or no responsibility other than to those around me who are comrades and loved ones, one is openly classist more than one is political.

 

[winjer]

The other lesson learnt for this kind of protest is that remaining peaceful in the face of intense police violence and provocation can bring far bigger dividends than reacting and giving them - and the media - what they so desperately want.

You're at it again.




etc etc.

 

[editor]

You're at it again.




etc etc.

You seem to be labouring under the seriously misguided notion that your personal version of events at G20 are somehow the absolute, definitive version of What Really Happened.

I've got news for you: they're not.

I was there too and my opinions and observations are every bit as valid as yours, so please cut out this annoying smugness. Thanks.

Oh, and I can't be arsed to follow random, unexplained YouTube links, and I've no idea why you think your original dull post was so important that a link to it had to be posted up.

 

[_pH_]

You're at it again.




etc etc.

sorry, what am i supposed to be seeing there?

 

[winjer]

You seem to be labouring under the seriously misguided notion that your personal version of events at G20 are somehow the absolute, definitive version of What Really Happened.

No I am not, I'm merely pointing out that you continue to ignore all the evidence which differs from your own direct experience, there's nothing smug about it, it seems to me that it is you who are smugly refusing to actually look beyond your own preconceptions.

I on the other hand, not only have the benefit of having been part of a team (from LDMG) that covered multiple locations simultaneously, I've also spent considerable time collating photos, videos and oral accounts of various incidents since then, see for example http://www.lasthours.org.uk/news/g20-another-version-of-the-truth/ - largely based on material which I collated.

 

[winjer]

sorry, what am i supposed to be seeing there?

People not "remaining peaceful in the face of intense police violence and provocation", or in other words defending themselves and others.

 

[editor]

sorry, what am i supposed to be seeing there?

I think he's trying to prove that a single isolated outbreak of vandalism by a handful of idiots somehow totally negates my point about the vast majority of protesters who remained totally peaceful in the face of intense police provocation. Or something.

You can never know for sure when people lazily post up random YouTube clips and can't be arsed to explain the point of them.

 

[_pH_]

@ winjer

that's not what i'm seeing (on the youtube link anyway, the other one was buffering too slowly so i gave up). I can see people shouting but nothing that i would call violence against the police

 

[_pH_]

No I am not, I'm merely pointing out that you continue to ignore all the evidence which differs from your own direct experience, there's nothing smug about it, it seems to me that it is you who are smugly refusing to actually look beyond your own preconceptions.

my experience of G20 is very similar to editor's.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

I think he's trying to prove that a single isolated outbreak of vandalism by a handful of idiots somehow totally negates my point about the vast majority of protesters who remained totally peaceful in the face of intense police provocation. Or something.

You can never know for sure when people lazily post up random YouTube clips and can't be arsed to explain the point of them.

As well as sneering at what others post and singularly refusing to offer anything more positive in response.

 

[_pH_]

I don't get the point you're trying to make winjer

 

[winjer]

That the general public are not averse to people defending themselves from the depredations of the constabulary.

 

[_pH_]

I don't think anybody's suggesting they are in general, but there's little evidence of that from the G20 demo.

But I still don't see the relevance of what you're saying?

Is this just a 'you're all a bunch of pathetic fluffies' thing?

 

[winjer]

I think he's trying to prove that a single isolated outbreak of vandalism by a handful of idiots somehow totally negates my point about the vast majority of protesters who remained totally peaceful in the face of intense police provocation.

This never happened then?

"By around half-one the kettle had been truly brought the boil and fighting had broken out along Threadneedle St. A line of police were pushed back by a crowd shouting, “Let us out”. A few bottles were lobbed but even without these the cops were forced to give way to the sheer physical pressure."

"At around 2.30, the crowd facing a thinner police line across Victoria St suddenly surged forward and by sheer weight of numbers pushed their way through. One of the shovers told SchNEWS, “It was amazing – we were resigned to being in the kettle until midnight but the lines broke right in front of me and confused police were shouting asking each other, ‘What’s the plan?’”. Despite the rapid deployment of riot cops, possibly up to a thousand people escaped at this point. Soon the windows of HSBC on Cheapside had gone in."

http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news671.htm

 

[winjer]

Is this just a 'you're all a bunch of pathetic fluffies' thing?

Not at all, I wasn't commenting on the tactics employed, merely the claim that passive resistance had brought "far bigger dividends".

 

[newbie]

You will get kicked in the face by steel toe capped boots. Get off of your knees and realise that to effectively oppose the state means being prepared to scrap. NVDA and playing dead are yesterdays tactics, discredited even back then.

No, to effectively oppose the state means a very substantial part of the population being involved in active opposition, not just a few young men who fancy a scrap.

IMO protests have a role to play in building and bolstering that. But these protests had no impact on the G20, the state or anything else, including public opinion about the G20. Discussion since has focussed on the policing, not on building on the widespread opposition to bailing out bankers while general unemployment rises steadily and ordinary people get punished.

How was Financial Fools Day an effective protest about the G20? Even the effect on the city was minor, small amounts of traffic re-routed and a few workers looking out the window, meanwhile just round the corner work carrying on as normal.

 

[_pH_]

This never happened then?

"By around half-one the kettle had been truly brought the boil and fighting had broken out along Threadneedle St. A line of police were pushed back by a crowd shouting, “Let us out”. A few bottles were lobbed but even without these the cops were forced to give way to the sheer physical pressure."

"At around 2.30, the crowd facing a thinner police line across Victoria St suddenly surged forward and by sheer weight of numbers pushed their way through. One of the shovers told SchNEWS, “It was amazing – we were resigned to being in the kettle until midnight but the lines broke right in front of me and confused police were shouting asking each other, ‘What’s the plan?’”. Despite the rapid deployment of riot cops, possibly up to a thousand people escaped at this point. Soon the windows of HSBC on Cheapside had gone in."

http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news671.htm

so just the amount of people there? not people physically attacking the police?

and as much as I admire schnews, they can be prone to a bit of hyperbole at times.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

well done winjer. you've more or less single handedly turned what was beginning to shape up as a promising discussion about future tactics into a ner ner ner ner exchange, have a fucking biscuit.

 

[_pH_]

IMO protests have a role to play in building and bolstering that. But these protests had no impact on the G20, the state or anything else, including public opinion about the G20. Discussion since has focussed on the policing, not on building on the widespread opposition to bailing out bankers while general unemployment rises steadily and ordinary people get punished.

How was Financial Fools Day an effective protest about the G20? Even the effect on the city was minor, small amounts of traffic re-routed and a few workers looking out the window, meanwhile just round the corner work carrying on as normal.

That is a very good point. In many ways the police behaviour has diverted attention away from the issues that people were there to protest about

 

[winjer]

No, to effectively oppose the state means a very substantial part of the population being involved in active opposition, not just a few young men who fancy a scrap.

Why do you consistently marginalize militant women?

 

[_pH_]

Why do you consistently marginalize militant women?

ffs. don't be a twat, you know what he/she meant

 

[winjer]

ffs. don't be a twat, you know what he/she meant

How am I being twat? Why should militancy be exclusively masculine?

 

[editor]

This never happened then?

I'm finding it increasingly hard to make sense of your argument. The vast, vast majority of protesters were overwhelmingly peaceful. A tiny minority were not. The Climate Camp was a veritable fluffy ball of fluffiness.

And I was in a kettle-busting shove, you muppet - that's how LDR and I got out. We were near the front too. It was not violent. In fact, the only violence we saw was when two vanloads of baton wielding police thugs came running towards us, and we had to employ some deft footwork to escape.

Did you even go to the Climate Camp, btw?

 

[_pH_]

How am I being twat? Why should militancy be exclusively masculine?

oh do fuck off. you're just being pedantic about something that newbie typed and you know it.

 

[_pH_]

Did you even go to the Climate Camp, btw?

Good question, what's your answer winjer?

 

[newbie]

apologies, I've no intention of singling women out, see it as equal opportunity marginalising of older men, children, people with disabilities and all sorts

 

[_pH_]

yeah newbie you BASTARD

 

[editor]

Not at all, I wasn't commenting on the tactics employed, merely the claim that passive resistance had brought "far bigger dividends".

That very much depends on what you wanted out of the protest. If you wanted endless video loops of mobs of twats lobbing bottles, bashing cops and pointlessly smashing inanimate objects up to becoming the main media focus of the event instead of the issues, I guess you might be disappointed.

However, if you felt that the peaceful response to the outrageous police intimidation has resulted in the police being brought publicly to task over their tactics, their unnecessary violence, their hiding of numbers, their disproportionate response and the dangers of kettling, then you may think that the protest did indeed bring far bigger dividends in the long term.

Which would you have preferred?

 

[berniedicters]

apologies, I've no intention of singling women out, see it as equal opportunity marginalising of older men, children, people with disabilities and all sorts

Good. This discussion was in danger of becoming altogether a bit too fucking inclusive. We'll have enumbers hugging a suit before you know it

 

[AKA pseudonym]

Cal from the Climate Camp crew on Twitter...

@climatecamp This man was hit at the north end of #ClimateCamp at #G20, sometime late on. http://tinyurl.com/darmha help us find him! pls RT, it's urgent