Weds 1st April: G20 protests - discussion, reaction and chat

[Squatticus]

Angle on breaking out of kettles

Defence of duress, anyone?

Prosecutor: So Mr X, why did you push your way through that police line, necessarily committing an assault on PC Bloggs in the process?

Defendant: Well, as the police have confirmed, there were a number of violent criminals inside the kettle, and fearing for my safety and the safety of others I pushed through the police line using the minimum necessary force.

 

[ymu]

Personally I'm not confident that the current furore will make any lasting difference to how the poilce behave - they are there to protect the interests of wealth and power and anything that seriously challenges that will always be met with violence.

No doubt. The lasting difference we can hope for is in public, and thus to an extent media, attitudes. As you say, this crap would never have been tolerated in the '70s. The neo-liberal project succeeded in changing the "norm", but it has demonstrably failed and attitudes are rapidly shifting again.

I think the importance will be in creating more space for new, and old but recently unfashionable, ideas to be heard.

 

[ddraig]

when all video all

article about the number of cameras, their use, fitwatch and some coppers excuses
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8010098.stm

The fallout from the proliferation of the cameras is particularly obvious on demonstrations. A battle is being waged.

For some time police have filmed and photographed demonstrations and other public events to spot potential trouble-makers and to pre-emptively gather evidence.

At the same time protesters have taken to monitoring events in order to deter police officers from excessive use of force and to provide evidence for legal action against the authorities or in defence of protesters.

 

[berniedicters]

I think in the long term, fighting the police only encourages them to be rough.

The main point, though, is this: If the purpose of protest is to communicate a message, then you absolutely have to consider the media. If there's any violence (and you can very loosely define that) from the protestors, then the media will write the standard story. It's an easy spin. But there's no way to spin a police striking a completely passive person. It's a harder thing to do, I think, but it works so much better as a protest tactic.

I know he's not perhaps the god he sometimes gets made out as, but this chap seemed to have some pretty good ideas...

 

[Crispy]

Last time I brought that up I got told there was actually plenty of armed resistance too, but ghandi gets the credit. No idea if it's true...

 

[winjer]

I know he's not perhaps the god he sometimes gets made out as, but this chap seemed to have some pretty good ideas...

Like this?

"I will prefer anarchy to the present system of administration because this ordered anarchy is worse than real anarchy. I am sure that the anarchy created by our efforts to mitigate this dangerous anarchy will be less dangerous. The violence exerted then would be just a trifle compared to the existing violence."
- Gandhi, 28th May 1942.

:yawn:

Last time I brought that up I got told there was actually plenty of armed resistance too, but ghandi gets the credit. No idea if it's true...

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8616483&postcount=477

 

[newbie]

sod Ghandi.

I find this all quite depressing. The explicitly non-violent, affinity group organised, direct actions of the 70s & 80s motivated far, far more people about the underlying causes of the protest than a few young men ritually bashing each other ever will.

I would like to think that I could stand there with my hands in the air shouting "this is not a riot" as a police line came foward to truncheon a crowd out the way.. I do not know if I have that much pascifism inside me tho.

So don't. Standing up puts you on their territory, put them in control, they can make you run. Sit down, link up, make them do all the work bending down, stay limp, make them carry you out. Then laugh at them, regroup and do it somewhere else. Mobile groups. Protest doesn't have to be so ineffective.

 

[berniedicters]

Like this?

"I will prefer anarchy to the present system of administration because this ordered anarchy is worse than real anarchy. I am sure that the anarchy created by our efforts to mitigate this dangerous anarchy will be less dangerous. The violence exerted then would be just a trifle compared to the existing violence."
- Gandhi, 28th May 1942.

:yawn:



http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8616483&postcount=477

Which goes to show, I suppose, that there's never going to be a "pure" ideology that works. But the fact we're still talking about the non-violent stuff says something about its durability in the public memory. That's worth remembering, even if a more direct approach is also needed to address wrongs. Not that the wrongs being visited on us as citizens are - yet - quite as bad as the wrongs that the Raj was visiting on the population of India.

 

[butchersapron]

Last time I brought that up I got told there was actually plenty of armed resistance too, but ghandi gets the credit. No idea if it's true...

It was the mass slaughter of millions in World War One and Two and the problems that this caused GB in financial and physical terms that led to Indian independence.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Of course there is. It has happened again and again in the past and will happen again and again in the future. One only has to consider the comments made by many regarding the Climate Camp videos - "those protesters are clearly not non-violent" and so forth - on YouTube, policing bulletin boards and elsewhere to see how 'police striking a completely passive person' can be spun.

Consider also incidents like the Diaz raid during Genoa.

One does not have to 'condone violence' to be emphatically supportive of self-defence.

One might also quite reasonably put forward the argument that when passivity and 'non-violence' (in the sense of the news bulletin-friendly, visual tactic) are the dominant forms of behaviour at political assemblies, then they help contribute to the mentality that many police officers have that there is no comeback to doling out beatings.

Not being passive does not have to mean being violently agressive, or aggressively violent. It can simply mean acting assertively and collectively.

So what about elements of the black block (perhaps with memories of Genoa) who still see smashing up property as a valid symbolic response to the violence of the state? Because I do believe that, to some degree or other, there will almost certainly be similar groups at future mass multi-faceted actions i.e. rather than the more single issue (and i hasten to add, entirely non-violent) climate camp crew for eg.

 

[winjer]

Because I do believe that, to some degree or other, there will almost certainly be similar groups at future mass multi-faceted actions i.e. rather than the more single issue (and i hasten to add, entirely non-violent) climate camp crew for eg.

What about the elements of the climate camp crew who see smashing up property as a valid symbolic response to the violence of the state?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

What about the elements of the climate camp crew who see smashing up property as a valid symbolic response to the violence of the state?

Where was that taking place on 1 April then? Cos it certainly wasn't occurring on Bishopsgate.

 

[winjer]

But the fact we're still talking about the non-violent stuff says something about its durability in the public memory.

I think it's more likely down to an underlying racism seeking to deny agency to non-whites (as with American Civil Rights revisionism), and not too different to the underlying sexism of folk claiming the suffragettes were 'non-violent' (cf. Climate Rush).

 

[winjer]

Where was that taking place on 1 April then? Cos it certainly wasn't occuring on Bishopsgate.

So?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

So?

? What's your point caller? The climate camp was peaceful in instigation and execution. the black block were tailed by plod all around the city, eventually being squeezed up towards plod lines and mucho pushing and shoving takes place as well as the rbs windows going in.

Different people seem to have different approaches to expressing their struggle, anger or disagreement with the state and its actors, and not necessarily because of any great ideological differences (although there may well be obv).

However, in the context of a post that calls for people to become assertive rather than aggressive, i think its perfectly reasonable to discuss these different underlying approaches to have a chance to move things on a bit.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

page 100 as well

 

[winjer]

? What's your point caller?

That a group of people not employing a particular tactic on a particular day doesn't mean they don't support it's application on other occasions?
That tactics aren't strategy nor vice versa?
That sensible discussion of either is sadly lacking and sorely needed?

(like that after Rostock for example, http://transform.eipcp.net/correspondence/1182944688,
http://www.lasthours.org.uk/archive...oid-notes-on-the-german-anti-g8-mobilization/, http://www.wombles.org.uk/article2007071102.php and many more)

The climate camp was peaceful in instigation and execution. the black block were tailed by plod all around the city, eventually being squeezed up towards plod lines and mucho pushing and shoving takes place as well as the rbs windows going in.

Ah, I see you're not actually interested in a discussion of tactics or strategy, simply cheerleading for a mythical entirely pacifist climate camp, and juxtaposing it with an equally mythical April 1st black bloc. I shan't interrupt you further in this important endeavour, do carry on.

 

[ymu]

Non-violence is very effective when protests face an overwhelmingly violent response from the state, for reasons we've seen over the last couple of weeks - the image of non-violent protesters with a just cause being battered incenses people. But that's not to say that protesters can just put their hands in the air and achieve a victory.

It's not really an either or. There will always be a role for non-violent protest because the vast majority cannot or will not get involved in violence, but equally there are a minority of NVDA types who aren't against the strategic use of violence. Ideally, it would be this minority that creates a safe space for the rest, like tutti bianche or the wombles. Where it breaks down is when the "fluffies" perceive the black bloc as just out to disrupt a peaceful protest, and the black bloc perceive the "fluffies" as being too much of a pushover. They're much more effective working together.

 

[Corax]

Ideally, it would be this minority that creates a safe space for the rest, like tutti bianche or the wombles. Where it breaks down is when the "fluffies" perceive the black bloc as just out to disrupt a peaceful protest, and the black bloc perceive the "fluffies" as being too much of a pushover. They're much more effective working together.

Spot on.

-------------

Who's this Lord West cunt then?

thousands of officers acted absolutely professionally and proportionately, thousands were actually able to demonstrate peacefully on our streets, criminal activity in the rest of the metropolis was kept to an absolute minimum and the police also maintained high levels of security.

And I think we should be extremely proud of them.

I have to say I do not like the thought of water cannon, baton rounds or shooting people all of which seem to occur in some other countries and I am jolly glad I live in this country. But all of those things will be looked at.

Hmm. Doesn't have much of a fanclub.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Ah, I see you're not actually interested in a discussion of tactics or strategy, simply cheerleading for a mythical entirely pacifist climate camp, and juxtaposing it with an equally mythical April 1st black bloc. I shan't interrupt you further in this important endeavour, do carry on.

what did i post but a question about how to begin to reconcile the approaches of the 2 vastly different approaches that occurred that day? if you can't differentiate between a post asking a valid question based on direct experience, both on 1 april and in the past, if you can see that as cheerleading, then i suggest you get biblical on your own arse and deal with the mote in your own eyes first.

as ymu acknowledges, there has often needed to be a black block style presence to allow the space to happen in the first place, and yet the plod response dating back to post-j18 and particularly since oxford st has been to use their presence to fuck the whole thing over. as well as providing lazy media headlines that has reinforced public support and allowed that approach to go ahead unhindered.

fuck knows how you'll respond to this though, now i'm probably cheerleading for the daily mail....

 

[shaman75]

Don't think I've seen this particular video of the climate camp before.

Same incident as seen before, but from a different camera I think.

 

[winjer]

what did i post but a question about how to begin to reconcile the approaches of the 2 vastly different approaches that occurred that day?

To recap:
I asked "What about the elements of the climate camp crew who see smashing up property as a valid symbolic response to the violence of the state?

And in place of an answer, you asked "Where was that taking place on 1 April then? Cos it certainly wasn't occurring on Bishopsgate."

There was also no superglue on Bishopsgate, so it's hardly representative of the full range of 'climate camp crew' tactics.

 

[winjer]

Who's this Lord West cunt then?

A sailor:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/organisation/ministers1/lord-alan-west/

I have to say I do not like the thought of water cannon, baton rounds or shooting people all of which seem to occur in some other countries and I am jolly glad I live in this country. But all of those things will be looked at.

They've all already been looked at, baton rounds and 'shooting people' are in the tactical options manual. Water cannon were recommended for the next (Olympics) edition by the Met Public Order Review, along with sonic weapons.

 

[TopCat]

sod Ghandi.

I find this all quite depressing. The explicitly non-violent, affinity group organised, direct actions of the 70s & 80s motivated far, far more people about the underlying causes of the protest than a few young men ritually bashing each other ever will.




So don't. Standing up puts you on their territory, put them in control, they can make you run. Sit down, link up, make them do all the work bending down, stay limp, make them carry you out. Then laugh at them, regroup and do it somewhere else. Mobile groups. Protest doesn't have to be so ineffective.

You will get kicked in the face by steel toe capped boots. Get off of your knees and realise that to effectively oppose the state means being prepared to scrap. NVDA and playing dead are yesterdays tactics, discredited even back then.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

To recap:
I asked "What about the elements of the climate camp crew who see smashing up property as a valid symbolic response to the violence of the state?

And in place of an answer, you asked "Where was that taking place on 1 April then? Cos it certainly wasn't occurring on Bishopsgate."

There was also no superglue on Bishopsgate, so it's hardly representative of the full range of 'climate camp crew' tactics.

So come on then, let's hear about your views on future strategy and tactics.

 

[editor]

That's all very well for you, but I don't see providing an experience we can tell our grandkids about as an end in itself for political action.

I wasn't there for the sake of my grandkids. I was there because I thought it was important, and I'm really glad to have played a part in the protest.

At least three positive things have already come out of the protest:

1.The public is now fully aware that cops must have their numbers on display, and if they try and cover them up they can expect to find themselves photographed widely and enjoying damning media coverage.

2. Any hopes that the police had that they may be able to stretch terrorism laws to ban photography of their actions at protests has been well and truly scuttled - for the near future, at least.

3. The cops are going to be a lot less quick to employ kettling as a tactic at peaceful protests.

There's a whole load of other important stuff currently being debated concerning police violence and accountability, Tomlinson's death etc, all of which adds up to the G20 protests beng anything but another pointless demo.

Shame you missed it really.

 

[winjer]

So come on then, let's hear about your views on future strategy and tactics.

Are you not able to answer my question with anything but further questions?

 

[e19896]

I wasn't there for the sake of my grandkids. I was there because I thought it was important, and I'm really glad to have played a part in the protest.

At least three positive things have already come out of the protest:

1.The public is now fully aware that cops must have their numbers on display, and if they try and cover them up they can expect to find themselves photographed widely and enjoying damning media coverage.

2. Any hopes that the police had that they may be able to stretch terrorism laws to ban photography of their actions at protests has been well and truly scuttled - for the near future, at least.

3. The cops are going to be a lot less quick to employ kettling as a tactic at peaceful protests.

There's a whole load of other important stuff currently being debated concerning police violence and accountability, Tomlinson's death etc, all of which adds up to the G20 protests beng anything but another pointless demo.

Shame you missed it really.

If it had not been for the actions of The Police, it could well have been another another pointless demo agreed there actions ensured it was not, but we all know the long game here, the filth are good at this, as said the anti police feelings needs to built upon, as they have learned lessons, so do those involved in protest, haveing read the climate camp report, you have to admire the self will, even if you disagree with there polatics and whome they are, it has to be given there actions have helped in where things are now, will this be just another RTS moment that is lost? all we can do is sit back and waite..

 

[Corax]

even if you disagree with ... whome they are

This is what bothers me about your posts enumbers - you object to others based not (only) on what they think and/or do, but just who they are.

Your exclusivity labels friends as enemies, and appears driven by some sort of martyr complex. It turns you into a reflection of those you hate. There is no Working Class Master Race; we're all just people.

 

[editor]

The other lesson learnt for this kind of protest is that remaining peaceful in the face of intense police violence and provocation can bring far bigger dividends than reacting and giving them - and the media - what they so desperately want.

G20 backfired spectacularly for the police because the protesters - particularly in the Climate Camp - failed to live up to the ridiculous 'violent anarchists to destroy the city' hype dished out by the cops and the press prior to the protest.