Weds 1st April: G20 protests - discussion, reaction and chat

[shaman75]

The Police were so frustrated that some of them spontaneously combusted.

 

[winjer]

"We don't yet know what these armoured, armed officers may have done to provoke protesters"
cf. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2368505.ece

 

[two sheds]

"Paddick urges arrest of assault officer"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/09/g20-ian-tomlinson-police

The officer involved could face a manslaughter charge if a link between the assault and Tomlinson's fatal heart attack minutes later is proved. "There is no excuse for what he did," a senior police source told the Guardian, adding that, at the very least, the officer had committed a serious disciplinary offence and a criminal assault.

The problem with this is that it would suggest *all* police who are on camera as making unprovoked attacks would have to be similarly treated.

It does bring to mind the prosecution of footballers, for example, who have a coin thrown at them from a crowd. An instinctive reaction is to throw it back but doing that hits someone that didn't throw it, and has to be a criminal offence.

 

[Corax]

"Paddick urges arrest of assault officer"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/09/g20-ian-tomlinson-police

The problem with this is that it would suggest *all* police who are on camera as making unprovoked attacks would have to be similarly treated.

It does bring to mind the prosecution of footballers, for example, who have a coin thrown at them from a crowd. An instinctive reaction is to throw it back but doing that hits someone that didn't throw it, and has to be a criminal offence.

Surely someone like Liberty could afford the QC needed to bring this?

Edit: Although thinking about it, I'm damn certain many of them would do it pro bono.

 

[cantsin]

that big cnut thinks he's a bit of a boy - am disspointed at the thought of him not getting dissabused of the notion at some point during the day....

still , the and fact that they got 4 out for their counter demo helps-
must be tough for them realising eveyone knows they got it completely , UTTERLY fricking wrong, how ever they try to spin it - it's over for them for now .

(

 

[durruti02]

FT Robocop link http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/87ff1546-1efb-11de-a748-00144feabdc0.html

"..The codename for their operation was “Glencoe”, after the brutal Highland massacre (1692, about 80 dead). Not a good start. And it didn’t get better. For the strategy for the next five hours was to line up, sometimes with riot shields, trying to stop anyone leaving: protesters, journalists, office workers, whoever. I saw a doctor unsuccessfully plead to be allowed to start his shift at nearby Bart’s hospital..."

oh boy

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

"..The codename for their operation was “Glencoe”, after the brutal Highland massacre (1692, about 80 dead). Not a good start. And it didn’t get better. For the strategy for the next five hours was to line up, sometimes with riot shields, trying to stop anyone leaving: protesters, journalists, office workers, whoever. I saw a doctor unsuccessfully plead to be allowed to start his shift at nearby Bart’s hospital..."

oh boy

see, i think from some first hand experience, it was even worse. this wasn't about containment, this was about intimidation and brutality, this was about power and violence, this was inevitable and awful.

 

[ska invita]

"Paddick urges arrest of assault officer"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/09/g20-ian-tomlinson-police

The problem with this is that it would suggest *all* police who are on camera as making unprovoked attacks would have to be similarly treated.

Exactly what I thought, and exactly why no prosecution will stand against the cop in the frame

What I get when I talk to long serving (or even moderately serving) coppers is the frustration they feel at the PACE merry-go-round that sees crooks routinely walk. Far from not having the evidence, even when they have more than enough evidence for a prima facie case, PACE and the CJA 1994 compels them to interview, which often involves waiting hours for a solicitor. That's just one example of bureaucracy, and it could all go to waste at the whim of the CPS.

And if you do get crooks to court, they get a string of "second chances".

After you've watched thieves and louts walk away for years on end, it's going to wear you down. I said I "sort of" understand them; not that they're justified.

I feel the same way about seeing police in the dock and getting let off

 

[Corax]

Oh, and is not borne out by any statistical evidence that I've seen. Any links?

 

[laptop]

The problem with this is that it would suggest *all* police who are on camera as making unprovoked attacks would have to be similarly treated.

So it's illegal to take pictures of cops. Problem fixed.


(The new law says it's illegal to take pictures of cops for terrorism-related purposes, but by the time it comes to trial and the photographer's acquitted they've been arrested, missed their deadline, likely had the pix on the camera edited by the arresting officer...)

I think news photographers need wi-fi-equipped cameras, now.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

So it's illegal to take pictures of cops. Problem fixed.


(The new law says it's illegal to take pictures of cops for terrorism-related purposes, but by the time it comes to trial and the photographer's acquitted they've been arrested, missed their deadline, likely had the pix on the camera edited by the arresting officer...)

I think news photographers need wi-fi-equipped cameras, now.

we've got them though quite how secure they will be is another matter wifi isn't a secure medium and could of course be scramblled much like mobile signals suddenly stop working at protests...

 

[laptop]

we've got them though quite how secure they will be is another matter wifi isn't a secure medium and could of course be scramblled much like mobile signals suddenly stop working at protests...

Oh aye, I wouldn't be surprised if there are plans for jamming wifi in areas of public order interest...

Though whether they'll manage to do that without disrupting police communications is another matter. Sure it's in the spec - which IIRC is pasted from some miltary project - but not sure it'll work.



It'd definitely add an element to the theare of the occasion:

Act 1: bobbies
Act 2: bobbies swapped out for yellow jackets
Act 3: (17:15 prompt) Darth Vader arrives
Act 4: WiFi lights blink out, snappers don helmets...

 

[winjer]

(The new law says it's illegal to take pictures of cops for terrorism-related purposes

It doesn't.

 

[winjer]

much like mobile signals suddenly stop working at protests...

They stop working because cellsites get overloaded, the same way that the pigs' Airwave radios kept failing around Gleneagles in 2005 because there were just too many of them for the network to handle in a rural area.

 

[laptop]

It doesn't.

we're thinking about this, yes?

Counter-Terrorism Act 2008, s 76

(1) A person commits an offence who—

(a) elicits or attempts to elicit information about an individual who is or has been—

(i) a member of Her Majesty’s forces,

(ii) a member of any of the intelligence services, or

(iii) a constable,

​

which is of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, or

(b) publishes or communicates any such information.
​

(2) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that they had a reasonable excuse for their action.

 

[winjer]

we're thinking about this, yes?

Yes, Section 76/58A (and its predecessors) has nothing to do with photography, were a photograph to be of use to a terrorist (etc.) it might lead to a charge under the older Section 58 of TA2000.

 

[Mooncat]

we've got them though quite how secure they will be is another matter wifi isn't a secure medium and could of course be scramblled much like mobile signals suddenly stop working at protests...

Or you could just swallow the memory cards

 

[newbie]

Kettling has been around for a while. I was put in my first kettle back in 2004 I think;

longer than that, they sealed Parliament Sq on Mayday in, I think, 2000 and wouldn't let anyone out for an hour or so. My friend said she and hundreds of others were kettled in a sidestreet during the Lewisham demo in the mid 70s

 

[Bernie Gunther]

we're thinking about this, yes?

Key is how it's applied in practice. It's easy to imagine them using this to prevent photography at the time, without following up and taking anyone to court.

 

[Sir Belchalot]

I got nicked breaking out of a kettle outside the Corn Exchange 25 years ago at Stop The City. Probably been around longer than that.

 

[durruti02]

see, i think from some first hand experience, it was even worse. this wasn't about containment, this was about intimidation and brutality, this was about power and violence, this was inevitable and awful.

yup

 

[laptop]

Metropolitan police chiefs ordered to justify tactics at G20 protests

...
Senior Scotland Yard officers who led Operation Glencoe, designed to prevent disorder in the capital during the summit, have been summoned to explain their tactics to members of the force’s watchdog body, The Times has learnt.
...
Mr Broadhurst, who gave stark warnings of violence ahead of the protests, will face questions about whether the language he and fellow commanders used increased the possibility of confrontation with demonstrators.

The meeting will take place on April 23 amid mounting public concern and complaints about an aggressive police approach to the demonstrations.

The officers will also have to appear at a public session of the authority the following week.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6073436.ece

* opens diary *

 

[ymu]

Blimey.

Mr Malthouse, who is also London’s Deputy Mayor with responsibility for policing, said that members would also require a full explanation of the intelligence material which convinced police that anarchist groups were planning violence in the City.

He added: “We need to understand the intelligence picture and decide whether the police response on the day was proportionate.”

(from laptop's link above)

This might be a good time to forward the "catapult plot" material to the IPCC...

 

[Barking_Mad]

From The Times

Last week, after spending seven hours as a journalist locked into an increasingly small cordon, after watching police officers charge with truncheons and shields and after watching peaceful protesters retreat bloodied, I wrote about my experience.

I claimed in this paper that the police action – detaining thousands of innocent people without charge, and then systematically squeezing them over a period of hours – seemed guaranteed to produce violence. I argued that many of the police involved seemed not just prepared, but eager, for a fight.

After the article was published, Sara McAlpine – who said that she had happened to pass a demonstration the following day to mark Mr Tomlinson’s death – sent me an e-mail. There is no way to corroborate her account, except that it tallies with so many others. “This is what I witnessed myself in 15 minutes standing near the Bank of England,” she said. “The police split the protest into two groups on two cornering streets, not letting anyone leave. Suddenly, a policeman threw a punch at the face of a male, who raised his right arm to try and block the punch (no retaliation, merely a block). Immediately, three officers threw him up against the scaffolding, knocked him to the ground and beat him with their batons. They then carried him horizontally away.

“A photographer on the spectator side of the cordon tried to capture it. An officer ran over and grabbed him, trying to force him into the cordon. He escaped but the officer came after him and squared up to him (who was right next to me at this point) shouting, ‘Do you want a piece of this, huh, do you want to come and get some?’ He was then called back by another officer.

“A few minutes later, a girl no more than 10 metres away from me, who was on the front line of the cordon, was suddenly shoved up against a wall and kicked repeatedly by a policeman. He left her as she stayed cowering.”

“At that point, five police surrounded us (as quite a crowd had amassed in horror by now) and told us that we would be arrested if we didn't move along. One guy said he had a right to stand there and watch and the policeman threatened him in no uncertain terms that he would either be arrested or thrown in the cordon if he didn't move. He did. I left.”

Hers was not the only e-mail. Steven McManus, who says he is a barrister and a former special constable, was in Threadneedle Street on Wednesday. “At around 6pm I was outside the Royal Exchange chatting with some officers. I was between the officers and the protesers. The atmosphere was calm and non-confrontational. I shared a few jokes with one officer and was just generally chatting.

“A short while later the line began to move forward. The officers began to shout that we should all move back. I turned towards the crowd and began to move off in that direction. As I was walking away I was struck from behind by a baton and pushed forward towards the steps of Bank Underground.

“I was more than a little shocked at having been hit. The officer who had struck me was one I had been chatting to moments earlier, who knew about my City Police connection, and to whom I had my back turned. I remonstrated with the officer as to why he had hit me – his reply being: “F*** off, move back”. He said he could not help but be reminded of the manner of the attack on Tomlinson.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6060244.ece

 

[Barking_Mad]

This is from Police Professional - News. Anyone use a portaloo or drink water given by the police? Anyone see a portaloo?

Cmdr Broadhurst was in overall charge of Operation Glencoe, described as one of the largest, most challenging and complicated public order operations that the MPS has ever delivered. As part of the Benbow
Operation, the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS}, City of London and
British Transport Police (BTP) worked together to manage protests at
the G20 summit with additional back-up provided by specialist officers
from Essex, Sussex and Bedfordshire at their airports.

A total of 122 arrests were made over the two days of the G20
protests, which ended on April 2. Up to three times the number of
protesters anticipated attended G20 protests, Cmdr Broadhurst said,
with a core of hundreds intent on causing damage. Between violent
disorder, assault on police, criminal damage and possession of a
weapon, 47 arrests were made.

On the first day of the G20 summit a number of cordons were put in
place to deal with the high levels of violence experienced against
officers. A small number of protesters sought to further damage
property and launch attacks on police against these cordons which
meant protesters had to be contained. Water and portaloos were made
available to contained protesters and groups of people were allowed to
leave through controlled dispersal.

The Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) and City of London Police
referred the matter to the IPCC who will assess circumstances
throughout the day of April 1 when Ian Tomlinson is believed to have
died of a heart attack.

Mr Tomlinson was not involved in the protest and is believed to have
been on his way home from work when he collapsed and stopped
breathing. An officer was made aware of Mr Tomlinson by a member of
the public and two medics were sent to attend.

Medical treatment was provided at the scene and protesters continued
to throw a number of missiles, believed to be bottles, at the officers
during this time.

Mr Tomlinson was later pronounced dead in hospital.

The City of London Police said: "A post-mortem examination found he
died of natural causes. [He] suffered a sudden heart attack while on
his way home from work.

http://www.policeprofessional.com/news.aspx?id=8514

 

[ymu]

Interesting comment on Craig Murray's blog.

Also of interest:

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/04/protests_at_the_g20_summit.html#photo11

His clothes seem remarkably wear-free (recently bought?).

 

[laptop]

Craig also shares my suspicion that the whole Cdr Quick/terror/arrests thing very conveniently changed the news agenda:

So this morning, instead of the news headline being the disgraceful fact that the policeman who launched an unprovoked assault from behind on Ian Tomlinson has still not been arrested, the headline is that the police have saved us all from certain death.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/04/politically_tim.html

 

[winjer]

Interesting comment on Craig Murray's blog.

His clothes seem remarkably wear-free (recently bought?).

Do they? Not to me.

 

[pboi]

god I am embarassed by that picture. we really dont do riots very well....the French shame us!

 

[ymu]

Do they? Not to me.

Really? They look brand spanking new to me.