War is a crime?

[hash tag]

With today's news that the ICC are looking at issuing warrants for the arrest of Netanyahu and leaders of Hamas for "war crimes" begs the question isn't war a crime and if war is not a crime how is it justified. A quick search reveals there are currently 39 wars currently being fought and to me any war being fought is criminal.

Countries Currently at War / Countries at War 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

 

[cupid_stunt]

... and if war is not a crime how is it justified.

First up, when you're defending your country against an invasion.

 

[hash tag]

First up, when you're defending your country against an invasion.

The invasion ie Russia is committing war.

 

[Fez909]

The invasion ie Russia is committing war.

A war needs multiple sides. Ukraine is also 'committing' war.

Fighting a defensive war is legally justifiable, so not a crime.

Same as things that are usually illegal (punching, kicking, even killing someone), can be justified if you're the one defending yourself.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

With today's news that the ICC are looking at issuing warrants for the arrest of Netanyahu and leaders of Hamas for "war crimes" begs the question isn't war a crime and if war is not a crime how is it justified. A quick search reveals there are currently 39 wars currently being fought and to me any war being fought is criminal.

Countries Currently at War / Countries at War 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

A war is legal if the Americans say it is.

https://media.defense.gov/2023/Jul/31/2003271432/-1/-1/0/DOD-LAW-OF-WAR-MANUAL-JUNE-2015-UPDATED-JULY 2023.PDF

 

[JimW]

In the old days you could get a sanction from the pope.

 

[petee]

With today's news that the ICC are looking at issuing warrants for the arrest of Netanyahu and leaders of Hamas for "war crimes"

they'll be going before a jury of honor, i presume.

 

[bcuster]

Agreed. Only defensive wars are justifiable

 

[MickiQ]

In order for war to be a crime there would need to be someone to ban it with the proper legal authority not to mention the ability and the resources to do so and there isn't

 

[bcuster]

In order for war to be a crime there would need to be someone to ban it with the proper legal authority not to mention the ability and the resources to do so and there isn't

Not sure I agree with that. Right is right & wrong is wrong for always.

A nation should have a robust ability to defend itself. Offensive wars are always wrong

 

[likesfish]

ICC are being fairly even handed Hamas did start this round with massacre rape and hostage taking all warcrimes.
Israeli retaliation included attacking civillians protected buildings( but Hamas used them which removes the protection )targeting civillians denying access to food and water killing medics and aid workers

 

[MickiQ]

Not sure I agree with that. Right is right & wrong is wrong for always.

A nation should have a robust ability to defend itself. Offensive wars are always wrong

Well what's right and wrong varies between individuals whereas a crime is a specific status that has been declared so by a law passed by someone. Who gets to make those laws? Not arguing that offensive wars aren't wrong (my moral code is the same as yours in this regard) but saying something is wrong and something is a crime are two completely different things.

 

[SpookyFrank]

ICC are being fairly even handed Hamas did start this round with massacre rape and hostage taking all warcrimes.
Israeli retaliation included attacking civillians protected buildings( but Hamas used them which removes the protection )targeting civillians denying access to food and water killing medics and aid workers

I'm not allowed to burn your house down and then just say Hamas were in the basement, tough shit.

 

[hash tag]

A war is legal if the Americans say it is.

https://media.defense.gov/2023/Jul/31/2003271432/-1/-1/0/DOD-LAW-OF-WAR-MANUAL-JUNE-2015-UPDATED-JULY 2023.PDF

Not surprising but not opening for me.

 

[hash tag]

saying something is wrong and something is a crime are two completely different things.

War is wrong. War is a crime against humanity.

 

[Saul Goodman]

War is wrong. War is a crime against humanity.

What if a country declares war on another to protect a third country?

 

[andysays]

Saying something is a "crime" suggests that it is illegal, in the case of war generally by internationally agreed criteria.

Not all wars or acts of war are illegal. Simply stating that all war is criminal is a bit facile, TBH

 

[kebabking]

War is wrong. War is a crime against humanity.

Do you get your morality/philosophy out of a Hallmark card?

The UK declared war on Germany in 1939 without Germany having attacked the UK. Crime against humanity?

Israel preemptively attacked Egypt, Syria and Jordan in 1967 as they were prepared to attack Israel. If Israel had waited for them to attack first, Israel would almost certainly have lost - and to be clear, 'lost' in 1967 would have meant the physical destruction of the state of Israel less than 25 years after the Holocaust. Crime against humanity?

 

[kabbes]

Not sure I agree with that. Right is right & wrong is wrong for always.

Lol at the idea that “crime” and “morally wrong” are interchangeable ideas.

 

[kebabking]

Lol at the idea that “crime” and “morally wrong” are interchangeable ideas.

And that there is One True Morality which is everlasting.

 

[krtek a houby]

Not sure I agree with that. Right is right & wrong is wrong for always.

A nation should have a robust ability to defend itself. Offensive wars are always wrong

Like Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Libya?

 

[hash tag]

The UK declared war on Germany in 1939 without Germany having attacked the UK. Crime against humanity?

This is not where the war was started and was well under way when the UK entered.

 

[andysays]

Just remember kids

War is stupid, and people are stupid, and love means nothing in some strange quarters...

 

[Jeff Robinson]

International criminal law prohibits the crime of 'aggression', i.e., basically using military force against another state. There are only two legal exceptions to this rule:

(1) where the state is acting in individual or collective self-defence (i.e. defending itself or another state) or

(2) where the military force is sanctioned by the UN Security Council.

 

[likesfish]

I'm not allowed to burn your house down and then just say Hamas were in the basement, tough shit.

true.
But you can't fight from a Hospital or mosque and expect said place to remain protected but you can't cause uneccessary suffering i.e. kids caught in crossfire not a war crime. People starving to death in a famine not a war crime. People starving when food aid is only a few miles away and the IDF being Dick's regardless if it's deliberate or not is a war crime

 

[Idris2002]

true.
But you can't fight from a Hospital or mosque and expect said place to remain protected but you can't cause uneccessary suffering i.e. kids caught in crossfire not a war crime. People starving to death in a famine not a war crime. People starving when food aid is only a few miles away and the IDF being Dick's regardless if it's deliberate or not is a war crime

Has it actually been confirmed that Hamas has ever used hospitals as a base? It's not like the IDF have ever shown any sign of being discouraged from targeting that sort of thing, prior to October 7th?

And given that they've destroyed effectively every hospital in Gaza, and committed at least one massacre of hospital personnel (Hamas are ruthless enough to do the same, but I've seen no convincing denial by the IDF, and I can't conceive of any reason why Hamas would, at this point, shoot hospital staff and dump them in a mass grave) I think the initial protestations of "oh, we had to hit the hospital because Hamas was using it" were as hollow as they seemed to be at the time.

 

[Idris2002]

And that there is One True Morality which is everlasting.

As Trotsky said in Their Morals and Ours.

 

[Idris2002]

This is not where the war was started and was well under way when the UK entered.

The other point is that the Nazi evil was so extreme, and the threat it presented so great, that the Second World War becomes a special case. Can any general rule be based on a special case?

 

[likesfish]

Has it actually been confirmed that Hamas has ever used hospitals as a base? It's not like the IDF have ever shown any sign of being discouraged from targeting that sort of thing, prior to October 7th?

And given that they've destroyed effectively every hospital in Gaza, and committed at least one massacre of hospital personnel (Hamas are ruthless enough to do the same, but I've seen no convincing denial by the IDF, and I can't conceive of any reason why Hamas would, at this point, shoot hospital staff and dump them in a mass grave) I think the initial protestations of "oh, we had to hit the hospital because Hamas was using it" were as hollow as they seemed to be at the time.

hospitals How Gaza’s hospitals became battlegrounds

The IDF released footage on November 13 that it said showed a group of armed men at the entrance of Al-Quds Hospital, at least one of whom appeared to be carrying a rocket-propelled grenade launcher. Israel said in a statement that its forces killed “approximately 21 terrorists” when they returned fire after the militants shot at their tank from the hospital, adding that civilians were seen leaving the hospital during the exchange.

The PRCS condemned Israel’s “false claims” and said no armed individuals were operating in Al-Quds. A video shared by Aburas, the PRCS relief coordinator, showed an Israeli tank firing on Al-Quds from the same location pictured in the IDF footage. The person filming ducked away from the window and a woman could be heard crying in the background.

Hamas being irregular forces may not understand that you can't shoot at people from hospitals or have much control of subunits and the IDF doesnt need much of an excuse to go on the warpath the Red crescent and the UNRWA really have limited options if armed men decide to use their facility's or just pass through that's good enough for the IDF to attack .

Hamas has previous for using protected buildings UN admits Palestinians fired rockets from UNRWA schools - UN Watch

 

[nino_savatte]

Taking information, unfiltered from UN Watch, is like drinking raw sewage. It works to defend Israel from criticism by the UN and its institutions. You may as well accept everything that Eylon Levy says without question.