weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
Can we not all pile on SheilaNaGig please, who has done nothing but post helpful and scrupulously peer-reviewed information?
Vitamin D toxicity: review & discussion, NOT recommendation
- Thread starter Mation
- Start date
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
I guess we're all particularly sensitive at the moment because of the way vitamin D is being touted as a "cure for covid" along with a lot of other things...
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
I just checked my oat milk carton and it contains 0.75 ug per 100ml - "15 percent RDI" which amounts to 30iu.
I suppose there's a threshold where it has to be classed more like a medicine...
I suppose there's a threshold where it has to be classed more like a medicine...
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Ok, you've Googled with some search strings and looked for associations?
I was just wondering what you had actually looked at.
"It is implicated" is a claim, and a pretty strong one based on such a premise.
I really wouldn't recommend we infer anything at all from the fact that a study exists.
Also, there are issues with previous studies not being able to be replicated (far too common in science for this to happen and not be adequately reported), and the selection of studies for some meta-analyses has been criticised.
In the last year, as has been said, Covid has brought vitamin D into the public spotlight, and due to the skin cancer measures mentioned earlier, there was something of an over-correction which has led to deficiencies in quite a lot of people.
However, the "vitamin D as panacea" has been coming round every few years, and there are some bad actors* involved.
* - I don't mean in the Nicolas Cage sense
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8ball
Decolonise colons!
Fair point about the pile-on.
Sorry about the tone, SheilaNaGig (pre-caffeination grouchiness on my part - now corrected - not an excuse).
Presenting that post as scrupulously peer-reviewed and helpful is unfortunately a long way from the case if it comes to inferring implication from the fact that a study exists, though.
"More is better" is not the case with vitamin supplements generally speaking, and there is plenty of evidence that this applies to vitamin D.
IMO for all of the above - the "I AM NOT A DOCTOR" disclaimer applies as always.
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8ball
Decolonise colons!
And length of shadow relates to how high the sun is in the sky, which affects how the relevant frequencies get filtered etc.
It's much easier to look at the weather forecast, though. No vitamin D gets made until the UV index reaches 3. Which is doesn't happen at all at any time of day this part of the year (we're looking at some point in April for the right frequencies, and towards the end of the time range the exposure range gets more tightly linked to mid-day - hence the 'length of shadow' rule of thumb).
Here's today's forecast.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
Actually Tuesday looks favourable
There's a sheltered steel bridge 10 miles down the local railway path that catches the sun to the extent that I can go topless even when it isn't super-warm...
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Actually Tuesday looks favourable
There's a sheltered steel bridge 10 miles down the local railway path that catches the sun to the extent that I can go topless even when it isn't super-warm...
View attachment 260384
We're already there, then for a very brief part of the day. Will take a while to catch up if you're not supplemented, but I think loads of us are lacking sunlight and fresh air at the moment. There's some evidence of a link between sunlight and serotonin production (in general - not just for those affected by SAD where the effects on mood are pretty clear).
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Sorry. I wasn't having a go at you but some of the studies you linked to in particular the "vit D deficiency implicated in...." which reads like a snake oil advert.
girasol
Addicted to handstands!
Every time I start looking into Vit D I get a bit overwhelmed by information (often contradictory or not fully researched) so I just buy Boots calcium + magnegium with vit D3 10ug, which apparently is 200% daily dose. When I look at Amazon D3 it says 3000/4000 IU... So I get even more confused. Is 3000IU 1/3 ish of 10ug,or is it three times MORE?
8ball
Decolonise colons!
3000IU is 75ug. (40IU is one ug)
8ball
Decolonise colons!
That's most likely 5ug.
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
Which is exactly why I suggested that everyone needs to ge aware of the symptoms associated with excess vitamin D.
And maybe if people actually consulted with proficient qualified experienced practitioners rather than rely on their own searches, they wouldn't get into such difficulties.
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
No other professional on here is routinely castigated in the way that I am. No engineer, solicitor, nurse or doctor is pulled up for their posts every time they offer advice or guidance.
I have a medical degree. I'm qualified, experienced, insured, trained, obliged by ethical guidelines, and to undergo continuing professional development. I teach my subject at entry level and at university level. I'm also a clinical supervisor.
I've been doing my job since 2003.
If I sometimes post on a relaxed manner on here, it's not a mark of incompetence. I don't see why I need to write a Harvard referenced essay every time I feel like contributing to a thread.
But once again, at least for the time being, I'm going to leave this stuff alone. I'm totally fed up with it.
I have a medical degree. I'm qualified, experienced, insured, trained, obliged by ethical guidelines, and to undergo continuing professional development. I teach my subject at entry level and at university level. I'm also a clinical supervisor.
I've been doing my job since 2003.
If I sometimes post on a relaxed manner on here, it's not a mark of incompetence. I don't see why I need to write a Harvard referenced essay every time I feel like contributing to a thread.
But once again, at least for the time being, I'm going to leave this stuff alone. I'm totally fed up with it.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Here is the one bit I criticised: "if you google for “vitamin D deficiency” and just about any health issue, you’ll see that it is implicated", based on the idea that this is a sound way of assessing any kind of evidence on the internet. I'd expect this to be true for any nutrient that has been claimed as a panacea at any point (I just Googled "vitamin C and lupus" and "vitamin C and schizophrenia" as a quick admittedly unscientific check and guess what...).
I'm sorry my tone was off, and apologised earlier, but I have no idea of your background aside from knowing you have an enthusiasm and knowledge relating to an assortment of areas in science.
In science being able to discuss matters without recourse to authority claims is commonly regarded as a good thing.
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
And yet, despite having an honours degree in health sciences, I am accused of quackery, charlatanism, or being a snake oil peddler whenever I have attempted to do so. By people who openly admit they have no science training.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't think anyone was aiming to shoot the messenger, just the message.
kalidarkone
Bringing YOU round.....
BTW 'I'm sorry you feel that way ' really isn't an apology more passive aggression masquerading as an apology.
passenger
up and down...
Yeah leave SheilaNaGig alone I found the posts really informative, and I class
my good self well informed on the subject.
my good self well informed on the subject.
Supine
Newt Member
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
Yeah, but have you googled for random YouTube videos on the subject
Sometimes I do. Because people who come to me for help are looking at those videos. It makes it much easier for me to push back on the nonsense if I can demonstrate that I have enough respect for their position and feelings to at least look at the videos. That puts me in a good position to explain, clarify, deconstruct or debunk specific claims and beliefs in rhose video. I consider this to be an important element of my work.
Knowing what videos they’re looking at also gives me a better understanding of their fears, concerns and doubts, which again gives me some leverage when I try to help them.
It’s not uncommon that someone who comes to see me has lost faith in orthodox medicine, and I’m in a position to encourage them to go back to the GP.
Recently, I sent a man back to his doctor with a letter filled with jargon. He had stopped seeing the GP because he had lost faith in the system. His problem had not been properly dealt with and kept recurring. I diagnosed osteomyelitis in his zygomatic arch, something that had been missed by the doctor. The man had never been referred for further investigation, and he’d been in recurring pain for eight years, fobbed off with steroid creams, antibiotics and painkillers. On showing the docter my letter, he was immediarely referred to hospital, where my diagnosis was confirmed.
It would have been stupid and dangerous for me to support his desire to continue avoiding the doctor., but I fully understand his reluctance.
I was able to talk him round because I respected his position, and was able to talk with him about some of the things he was saying, based on stuff he’d read online.
ETA
Incidentally, there is a bloke who goes round Brixton preaching to other Black people that they are able to make vitamin d because they have black skin, and they don’t need sunshine or supplements. Several times, I have actively intervened and explained this is wrong, and people have been happy to listen to me and stop paying attention to him. I could not have achieved this had I not spent some time just listening to his claims and paying attention to what he was saying. I only do this when the claims are dangerous (for instance this vitamin D thing, or when someone is advocating potentially dodgy interventions, or telling someone they don’t need to see the doctor, go to hospital, or to stop taking their meds). Otherwise I don’t intervene. A lot of people who feel very disenfranchised are having these conversations. I’m in a good position to push back, so I work to establish good foundations from which I can do that.
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SheilaNaGig
Break requested
Thank you for this, and I’m glad you found some of it interesting.
I don’t want a free pass. I’m not expecting to be unchallenged. But I’m fed up with the blanket assumption that I’m a bad actor, or acting in bad faith.
elbows
Well-Known Member
There are lots of reasons why this stuff ends up a delicate subject.
A lot of the science and medical wisdom isnt good enough, or at least is nowhere near conclusive enough. That is no individuals fault, but it does make it tricky for individuals to express their opinions on the details in a way everyone can easily validate and therefore easily trust. And people are generally familiar with the sort of bad actors in the wider world and throughout history that operate on this front, making them wary before we even have a particular discussion on this forum.
Nor does scientific training offer an automatic and all-encompassing inoculation against personal opinions, hunches and beliefs from entering the mix. Science is not usually pure in the ways it might claim to be. We are very lucky when something can really be consistently demonstrated beyond doubt, its sadly quite a rare phenomenon. We gather clues. We deduce things. Some of the deductions arent safe. Spotting the difference is a struggle. Or we dont get far beyond scratching the surface. Fingers get burnt and toes get trodden on when we try. When we relax and speak freely, the more fragile (unproven) but dearly held of our beliefs may reveal themselves more readily to others. Under scrutiny those may then be forced into retreat in ways that are upsetting to have to go through. When that which we hold dear is revealed to others we may be seeking acceptance and appreciation of it, and it is a bitter blow when the reaction is instead one of suspicion, ridicule etc. Meanwhile these painful journeys mostly reveal things about ourselves, others, and currently accepted societal beliefs, rather than shine much light on the actual substance of the science, medicine etc.
The interface between different peoples understanding, beliefs etc is painful and full of friction. I cannot help but take it personally when it happens to me, because it is deeply personal. But I hope to remove some of the sting from it at the time by also viewing it in this more impersonal, disconnected manner, the inevitable broader phenomenon, a phenomenon that cannot be bypassed just because something is true, or easily demonstrated to be false.
A lot of the science and medical wisdom isnt good enough, or at least is nowhere near conclusive enough. That is no individuals fault, but it does make it tricky for individuals to express their opinions on the details in a way everyone can easily validate and therefore easily trust. And people are generally familiar with the sort of bad actors in the wider world and throughout history that operate on this front, making them wary before we even have a particular discussion on this forum.
Nor does scientific training offer an automatic and all-encompassing inoculation against personal opinions, hunches and beliefs from entering the mix. Science is not usually pure in the ways it might claim to be. We are very lucky when something can really be consistently demonstrated beyond doubt, its sadly quite a rare phenomenon. We gather clues. We deduce things. Some of the deductions arent safe. Spotting the difference is a struggle. Or we dont get far beyond scratching the surface. Fingers get burnt and toes get trodden on when we try. When we relax and speak freely, the more fragile (unproven) but dearly held of our beliefs may reveal themselves more readily to others. Under scrutiny those may then be forced into retreat in ways that are upsetting to have to go through. When that which we hold dear is revealed to others we may be seeking acceptance and appreciation of it, and it is a bitter blow when the reaction is instead one of suspicion, ridicule etc. Meanwhile these painful journeys mostly reveal things about ourselves, others, and currently accepted societal beliefs, rather than shine much light on the actual substance of the science, medicine etc.
The interface between different peoples understanding, beliefs etc is painful and full of friction. I cannot help but take it personally when it happens to me, because it is deeply personal. But I hope to remove some of the sting from it at the time by also viewing it in this more impersonal, disconnected manner, the inevitable broader phenomenon, a phenomenon that cannot be bypassed just because something is true, or easily demonstrated to be false.
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SheilaNaGig
Break requested
I can’t tell you’re saying you think I’m full of shit, or if I deserve to be taken at face value and treated fairly.
Anyway. I’ve had a long day and I’m feeling pretty fed up. I’m out of here for the next few days.
Anyway. I’ve had a long day and I’m feeling pretty fed up. I’m out of here for the next few days.
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
Please don't do that.
SheilaNaGig has again provided links and critical comment on a wide variety of sources and research results, comment and opinion, and taken pains to include concerns and caveats.
If you have concerns or doubts about the validity of any specific results linked to, do share them. This is a thread for review and discussion, as the title makes clear.
It's not a thread for sniping, and certainly not at someone who has made way more effort than you have to provide information and food for thought.
This is really hand-wavily judgemental. Have you actually read any of the studies? If so, please share your thoughts on specifics.
My claims of authority tend to come out when I'm being doubted, not on the basis of what I've presented, but on the basis of others' beliefs about what I'm likely to present.
In science, it's commonly regarded as a good thing to be able to discuss matters without recourse to one's preconceptions of the source.
Interesting. My one-person observational study (of my mother) indicates that her chronic psychosis became significantly more pronounced on her immigration from a tropical country to the UK. There will be other factors, known and unknown, but this is something I want to investigate further, just for personal reasons.Low vitamin d is associated with mental health problems too, including schizophrenia, psychosis, bipolar, depression, anxiety....
Vitamin D deficiency and psychotic features in mentally ill adolescents: A cross-sectional study - BMC Psychiatry
Background Vitamin D deficiency is a re-emerging epidemic, especially in minority populations. Vitamin D is crucial not only for bone health but for proper brain development and functioning. Low levels of vitamin D are associated with depression, seasonal affective disorder, and schizophrenia in...bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com
It will likely turn out to be impossible to judge the relative contribution of various factors in this one case, but I'd still like to understand more about the potential causes.
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
Do what you need to, of course. I'm sorry you've been put in the position of needing to x
elbows
Well-Known Member
I wasnt saying anything about either of those things.
I was attempting to describe the phenomena from a couple of different angles without offering any judgement either way on the details of this specific incident and the people involved.
I certainly wasnt trying to touch on what might be considered fair to you or anybody else, rather I was just describing some of why I consider some things to be almost inevitable when these sorts of discussions go into this territory.
In an ideal world of science the quality of the knowledge, the conclusiveness of certain answers to key questions, would mean that people would not need to rely so much on judgements about the quality, beliefs and track record of the source, the messenger, to try to help them reach some sort of conclusion.
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