The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I would hazard a guess that these suggestions would indeed be legal under a communist dictatorship.
VAT on Private Schools Kicks In
- Thread starter Mr Retro
- Start date
weltweit
Well-Known Member
We have discussed similar before but private schooling is a particular issue.
Assuming people earn their incomes fair and square, what should they be permitted to spend their earnings and savings on?
Quite a lot of parents like to spend their dosh on their kids, in various ways. They could have spent their savings on a range rover, a holiday, or perhaps a math tutor for their kids, kids clubs for the school holidays, a place in a crammer college, or they could want to spend their money on a full scale private education for their kids.
It is a lot of money and as I think I already mentioned some parents do start saving as soon as they conceive a child, but the urge, the desire to spend your savings on your kids is probably a kind of basic urge.
So the question: What should people be permitted to spend their savings on?
Assuming people earn their incomes fair and square, what should they be permitted to spend their earnings and savings on?
Quite a lot of parents like to spend their dosh on their kids, in various ways. They could have spent their savings on a range rover, a holiday, or perhaps a math tutor for their kids, kids clubs for the school holidays, a place in a crammer college, or they could want to spend their money on a full scale private education for their kids.
It is a lot of money and as I think I already mentioned some parents do start saving as soon as they conceive a child, but the urge, the desire to spend your savings on your kids is probably a kind of basic urge.
So the question: What should people be permitted to spend their savings on?
Mr Retro
Beware hedgehogs
What do you define as 'the best education possible' though? Are you just talking about exam results or more than that?
Really?
'Pupils in England who attend fee-paying schools no longer outperform their state school peers in core GCSEs once results are adjusted for socioeconomic background, according to a new study.
.....
“It has long been assumed that the private sector outperforms the state sector at GCSE level and raw data indicates just that,” said lead author Prof Jake Anders, UCL Centre for Education Policy and Equalising Opportunities. “However, this doesn’t allow for the vast socioeconomic differences between private and state.”
His research found that before adjustment, private school pupils achieve on average four fifths of a grade higher across eight GCSE subjects. Once socioeconomic status is taken into account the difference is close to zero.
When just core subjects are considered, state school pupils do better, scoring on average two-thirds of a grade higher in maths, two-fifths of a grade higher in science and just under a fifth of a grade higher in English, after adjusting for socioeconomic factors.
Private and state school pupils’ GCSE results are now the same, study finds
Inequality still exists amongst the creative arts subjects, where privately educated pupils perform better
'The GCSE results gap between the south and the rest of England has widened. This year's results reveal London as the highest-performing region, with 72.5% of entries graded as at least 4/C, while the West Midlands is lowest-performing with a pass rate of 63.1%.'
GCSE results day 2024: Gap between south and rest of England widens
London was the highest-performing region, while the West Midlands was the lowest.
www.bbc.co.uk
philosophical
Well-Known Member
Depends what you mean by, or look for in the concept of 'best'.
My nephew has just started his first job after University. It is in central London, and he starts on £45k a year.
He was obliged to go to his sixth choice secondary school at age 11. A very undesirable (hence sixth choice) all boys comprehensive in SE London.
He just graduated with a first in computer science.
Would you say he had the 'best education possible' in his London comprehensive school?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
The system is structured so that existing elites replicate themselves.
These elites are not going to overhaul the state system.
There's no 'nice' way to deal with this . It's too entrenched.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I think we need to be clear headed here.
Private education does give those who can afford it all kinds of advantages.
No sense pretending otherwise.
Left to individual choice, of course people will pay for these advantages if they can.
That's not a moral failing, it's the logic of the system we live in.
We have to remove that choice and change the logic of the system. That's a massive ask.
Private education does give those who can afford it all kinds of advantages.
No sense pretending otherwise.
Left to individual choice, of course people will pay for these advantages if they can.
That's not a moral failing, it's the logic of the system we live in.
We have to remove that choice and change the logic of the system. That's a massive ask.
Mr Retro
Beware hedgehogs
Agreed, but there is a realistic way of dealing with it.
Banning fee paying schools and seizing assets and resources is not only unrealistic fantasy but not even legal. Neither can you ban people from working in public office and service because they have a private education.
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
SEN-only or primarily for children with SEN private schools should be exempt. The only controversial part there is that they need to exist at all, and that most of the parents have to pay for it.
Some private schools can be awful for kids with SEN, though - I don't know where it's come from that private is automatically better for kids with SEN. The academic pressure and lack of vocational courses at GCSE and above can make some private schools a nightmare for kids who don't fit the academia-at-all-costs ethos of many private schools (obvs excluding the ones that are SEN-focused).
Who knows if it will make state schools better in the long run, but will it raise some money? Yes. Will it mean that schools that aren't really charities lose some of their fake status? Yes. Will it mean some parents actually consider local state schools that are actually good schools? Yes.
And no, it won't mean kids going back to state school next Monday instantly have a better education. Damn Labour for not making generational changes overnight!
There are an awful lot of really good schools in London. If you missed out due to overcrowding meaning your kid didn't get a school place, or your kid had SEN needs that weren't being catered for, that'd be different.
Also, a lot of parents in London who choose private school do it to avoid the brown people/Muslims/other undesirables. You're not one of them, but many of the other parents will be. It's one of the things that would put me off if I had tons of money and private school was an option.
Some private schools can be awful for kids with SEN, though - I don't know where it's come from that private is automatically better for kids with SEN. The academic pressure and lack of vocational courses at GCSE and above can make some private schools a nightmare for kids who don't fit the academia-at-all-costs ethos of many private schools (obvs excluding the ones that are SEN-focused).
Who knows if it will make state schools better in the long run, but will it raise some money? Yes. Will it mean that schools that aren't really charities lose some of their fake status? Yes. Will it mean some parents actually consider local state schools that are actually good schools? Yes.
And no, it won't mean kids going back to state school next Monday instantly have a better education. Damn Labour for not making generational changes overnight!
There are an awful lot of really good schools in London. If you missed out due to overcrowding meaning your kid didn't get a school place, or your kid had SEN needs that weren't being catered for, that'd be different.
Also, a lot of parents in London who choose private school do it to avoid the brown people/Muslims/other undesirables. You're not one of them, but many of the other parents will be. It's one of the things that would put me off if I had tons of money and private school was an option.
newme
Giant in Pastyland now
Well you could but it wouldn't be a sensible idea for the second part, as a non having gone to private education person. The first part happens in theory due to taxation but that isn't working, possibly due to the first bit and its wider implications. Then again you could also argue the best person should get the job (whichever job) and that is not the case currently. Its the 1) Idea 2) ? 3) Desired Outcome concept all over again
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes, this. Well put.
I'm not sure why people who don't have kids should give any more or less of a toss than people with kids. The principle behind state education is that it's a public good like healthcare and everybody should be able to access it. Private education isn't based on that principle - you're choosing to pay for what you think is a better service that will benefit your child.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Except that there is private healthcare
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes and that's also shit
newme
Giant in Pastyland now
SEN should be centrally funded, currently its a postcode lottery, having dealt with getting contracts in place for various types of provision around this area for 3 large spending UK councils. Half the time it isn't even your own postcode or even council, its what is nearby to it. All of them outsourced at least some to outside the area people were living in, then home to school transport. How that somehow works everywhere seems confusing as a general concept as we only have so many areas unless there is some large area with a huge amount of appropriate schools which seems unlikely. Presumably some lose out massively. Never saw one council actually have any specific benefit from it, usually it just meant a huge chunk of funding went there.
I have to sort out a home to school transport contract for a 7 figure sum and thats just part of one thats within the actual local area. Per pupil spend is insane compared to non-SEN pupils. No way around it tho, some individuals require additional support regardless of age. Lack of central funding for this is the driving factor behind so many councils having financial issues however as well as the general reduction of funding all round.
Idk what the answer is but I do know I have been in so many meetings about provision its staggering because of how much it hits budgets. Do know just about every council tax increase I have seen has been basically to provide ASC or childrens to pretty much the minimum level. No one likes that, its bad to announce, its bad cos its not enough, its bad cos it fucking well should be. All the wrong people get the blame but we are decades into this mess and it can't be fixed overnight. Not letting perfect be the enemy of good should be a good step forward however.
newme
Giant in Pastyland now
Well one job I had offered far more than the NHS did, not that I ever had a use for it but I also was on the base plan and not on a triple or more digit income. Those can come with considerably more benefits, even the one I had offered more than the standard NHS offering, can only imagine if I was paid a lot more then that or it was a company used to offering health benefits as part of the package.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes, so that's also shit.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Sorry but evil pays well. Is this really news ?
newme
Giant in Pastyland now
Fair enough think I misunderstood you that the provision provided was shit more than the situation, which I agree is shit.
Well yeh it was a consultancy
Tho even my council contract gets me money off NHS and some amounts off private bits and pieces including luxury bones.
Hollis
bloody furious
That doesn't negate the point being made...
weltweit
Well-Known Member
I don't really have a dog in this fight.
I am ambivalent about the Etons and Harrows etc of this world, if they were eliminated I expect the super rich would still find a way to get their kids the "best" outcomes.
If you are against private education this isn't a solution you will welcome.
The current solution of VAT and tax subsidy removal is messy, the schools and advantage remain but now are only affordable by the more rich than before.
Then there is that thing, what should people be permitted to spend their money on?
I am ambivalent about the Etons and Harrows etc of this world, if they were eliminated I expect the super rich would still find a way to get their kids the "best" outcomes.
If you are against private education this isn't a solution you will welcome.
The current solution of VAT and tax subsidy removal is messy, the schools and advantage remain but now are only affordable by the more rich than before.
Then there is that thing, what should people be permitted to spend their money on?
weltweit
Well-Known Member
He said that education was a public good and should be provided by the state like health. So I pointed out that even with health there is a private sector.
I don't think anyone said private schools were better for children with SEN but I do know of at least one here that is popular for autistic kids and lots of autistic boys do very well at the grammar, they don't have 'SEN' because they're in an environment, smaller class sizes being one factor, that works for them.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This is entirely the point, though. It's not inevitable that the super-rich will want to opt out of the public system. That's not how things work so much in France, for example.
And private health care is a very good case in point here. If you're seriously ill, you want to be in one of the best hospitals with the best care. Those are the teaching hospitals. In the NHS.
Hollis
bloody furious
Yes, and that still doesn't negate the point. I.e that both education and health are freely available to everyone as a public good. If you choose to opt out of that then you're buying a service to give you a specific advantage.
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weltweit
Well-Known Member
I am waiting to see an NHS specialist. I need to make decisions on a health issue quite quickly or it may become a lot more serious. The time delay for the specialist to see me in the hospital in the next town is 170 days, there is a unit in my local town, the delay to appointment there is 320 days.
As it happens I will probably also need to see another specialist as part of finding a solution, this appointment isn't even in train yet, I think I have to visit my GP to request it despite that it is a very obvious requirement because of my issue. So there could also be a long delay there.
It may be that the NHS just can't respond quickly enough for my issue, I will press my GP. Assuming a private solution were available more quickly and I could afford it, at what point would it be ethically acceptable to take that route?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Are you asking for absolution? I'm not sure what you expect people to say. The world is shit. It's not as it should be. It's up to you what you choose to do to navigate through that.
I wish you the best whatever you choose.
I wish you the best whatever you choose.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
To bring this back to politics, I think it's a dead end politically to condemn people for their individual choices when they opt out of public systems and pay for private services instead. It's shit that anyone does that or feels the need to. But it's the system that's wrong, not the individuals within it.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
No, just presenting a situation where the state provision may not be good enough. I hadn't even thought till I wrote that post that a private solution might be available, I am still going the NHS route but writing that made me think.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The NHS does fail some people. And I wouldn't at all condemn someone for paying to go private in such circumstances. Hell, I did it when I couldn't get the physio I needed on the NHS. I tried and they wouldn't give it to me. The NHS failed me in that small way. Increasingly, many people are 'opting out' in these small ways - a hundred quid here and there. We're being forced to. Drip, drip, drip.
I have less sympathy for people who opt for private education. I've yet to meet anyone who sends their kid private who has given me a convincing reason why they had to. And it's not a hundred quid here and there. It's tens of thousands of quid every year.
