VAT on Private Schools Kicks In

[Winot]

I think in terms of positive, feel-good PR, Labour's strategy of taxing posh private schools will prove such a hit amongst their electorate that it's worth upsetting the tiny minority of their school-fee paying voters.

^ this

It's an incredibly popular policy.

 

[Saul Goodman]

My understanding from reading this today is that they don't need to have previously been VAT registered to claim back VAT paid over the last ten years on building projects. That's what this says:

Eton among elite private schools set to cash in on windfall from new VAT rules

They can claim it back over the next ten years. Places like Eton are being pretty barefaced by passing on the full 20%.

In short, the taxpayer will now be funding 20% of their running costs and capital projects. It is a windfall gain to the privileged independent schools at the expense of the taxpayer.

Oh look. Who'd have thunk... etc.

 

[editor]

^ this

It's an incredibly popular policy.

I LOVE it, as well as the farmers inheritance tax changes.

If only they could move on to seriously taxing the super rich hoarders, making a fully funded NHS totally free again, renationalise water and railways, and start building council homes by the thousands I might get to enthusiastically vote Labour again*.

*I know it's never going to happen, but I can dream.

 

[mentalchik]

Primary seems to be worse than secondary for assaults on staff. Also children starting there having had basically zero socialisation of any kind. Children who can't say their own names.

A member of my extended family is a deputy head of a local primary....more and more kids are coming into reception still in nappies, no social skills, verbally and physically aggressive....they now have to put some of their already squeezed budget into providing this 'help'....teachers should not be potty training kids....of the five newly qualified teachers they took on this year the last one left at christmas.

 

[Thora]

A member of my extended family is a deputy head of a local primary....more and more kids are coming into reception still in nappies, no social skills, verbally and physically aggressive....they now have to put some of their already squeezed budget into providing this 'help'....teachers should not be potty training kids....of the five newly qualified teachers they took on this year the last one left at christmas.

Consequences of dismantling support in early years eg Sure Start centres.
Underfunding in social and health visiting services.
2 child benefit cap.
The difference in support for families from when my eldest was born (just before austerity kicked in) and my youngest in 2017 was very dramatic.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

We shouldn’t be charging VAT on private schools, we should be abolishing them.

Completely agree. Tax the fuckers out of existence as far as I'm concerned - and the sooner Eton closes down the better.

 

[weepiper]

Consequences of dismantling support in early years eg Sure Start centres.
Underfunding in social and health visiting services.
2 child benefit cap.
The difference in support for families from when my eldest was born (just before austerity kicked in) and my youngest in 2017 was very dramatic.

Plus the kids starting school now were babies and toddlers during the pandemic so much less opportunities to socialise anyway.

 

[mentalchik]

Consequences of dismantling support in early years eg Sure Start centres.
Underfunding in social and health visiting services.
2 child benefit cap.
The difference in support for families from when my eldest was born (just before austerity kicked in) and my youngest in 2017 was very dramatic.

I totally accept what you are saying but confess i just find it very hard to wrap my head around people not doing these very basic things with their kids.....my family member has been a teacher all his life, as has his wife but they are taking early retirement as they can no longer cope with all the shit. kids and parents that are physically and verbally abusive, all the stuff i mentioned in my previous post, on top of all the ridiculous amounts of work demanded by the curriculum.....his school is not in a particularly deprived area but it appears that increasing numbers of parents are just 'giving up' on bringing up their kids and expecting teachers to do it for them.....the whole thing is broken.

 

[Thora]

Plus the kids starting school now were babies and toddlers during the pandemic so much less opportunities to socialise anyway.

Definitely.
I was just thinking with my eldest I had a maternity grant before he was born, midwife and health visitor came to see me at home after the birth. Local Sure Start centre with free baby classes, breastfeeding support, toddler group with support staff to advise on things like potty training. I saw an NHS speech therapist at a drop in there.
3rd child the midwife didn't even come to visit, I had to go to a town 10 miles away for appointments with my newborn. Children's Centre was now run by a Christian organisation, no drop in groups. Health visitor didn't visit you had to schlep to a clinic. No speech therapy available through the NHS we had to pay privately (I think it was £75 a session!).

 

[chilango]

Problem is that whilst it's all very well cheering this on, it's not going to make any difference.

We need to:

• Ban fee-paying schools.
• Seize all their assets and resources.
• Ban people with private educations from public office/service.

Then we might start to change stuff.

A few thousand rich folk paying a few thousand extra quid for a bit is a wasted opportunity.

 

[MickiQ]

I'm OK with it, apparently it will raise £1.7bn which may not be enough money to sort out all the problems in the state education sector but it's £1.7bn that will be used to fund stuff that otherwise will not be funded how is that a bad thing?
As for the principle again why not? If you're sending your kids to a private school you're essentially buying them privilege and a head start. If people want to spend their money on that rather than wine, women and song that's their choice but they certainly shouldn't get a tax break on it (either the private education or the carousing)

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

There is a chronic shortage of teachers, and more leave each week. Where does the venal liar think that the 6500 new teachers are coming from?

Make charging for education a crime.

How many spare teachers will that create?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Ex works in a private school. They report that a lot of children have been withdrawn in advance of the fees increase, they have now been sent to local state sector schools.

Ask them to say the exact (or even rough) numbers. Bet they can't.

Same as the millionaires fleeing the UK cos Labour got in, fucking off you pop, name/number them? Oh, you can't, cos it's just Paul Dacre telling you what to think, as usual.

 

[edcraw]

Ex works in a private school. They report that a lot of children have been withdrawn in advance of the fees increase, they have now been sent to local state sector schools.

A good thing surely and one of the reasons for doing it.

 

[Gramsci]

Problem is that whilst it's all very well cheering this on, it's not going to make any difference.

We need to:

• Ban fee-paying schools.
• Seize all their assets and resources.
• Ban people with private educations from public office/service.

Then we might start to change stuff.

A few thousand rich folk paying a few thousand extra quid for a bit is a wasted opportunity.

Agree except for the last one.

I do live in one of the most deprived wards in London. The best local Cllr I had was from what would call a privileged background. Knew her well. She ended up being such a genuinely popular Cllr ( as she listened to people and took their concerns on board) that the ( New) Labour group got rid of her. Whilst some of the more working class Cllrs were appalling right wing Labour. My local Labour group is very "diverse" ( their term) but also on the right of the party and has been for years.

Some of the people I went to school with were alright. It was the system that was the problem. And in some cases I don't think they were happy in it. Some excelled in that kind of environment. Becoming Prefects. There was always a minority who didn't fit that well. That kind of educational system is also about weeding out those who might not being 100 percent the right sort. Either way , and perhaps this is another topic, apart from it being elitist is that this kind of education isn't necessarily a good one for children's development. Imo anyway.

So no on the last one feels to me too punitive towards individuals.

 

[Sue]

So no on the last one feels to me too punitive towards individuals.

We have enough punishment to go around!

 

[weltweit]

Ask them to say the exact (or even rough) numbers. Bet they can't.

They did say how many but I can't remember. It is my Ex, we don't speak every day

 

[Winot]

Story in the FT about the arms race in private schools for unnecessary luxury which is putting up fees:

 

[klang]

As for the principle again why not? If you're sending your kids to a private school you're essentially buying them privilege and a head start.

You answered your own question

 

[Gramsci]

I don't understand this move at all as it seems to target the last of the reliable Labour voters, the well-off middle classes.
I don't see it bringing much benefit to the creaking and disintegrating state system.
There could be a negative impact on SEN as many of the specialist SEN schools are now private after decades of failing to make state schools actually inclusive or create enough specialist places.

Sorry when it comes to the so called independent schools system aka public schools I see red due to my experience.

I know SEN is something that concerns you and yes it does appear to be an issue that deserves some sympathy.

Tried to look the issue up and came across this.

The Labour Party's VAT Proposal on Private School Fees: What It Means for Pupils with Special Educational Needs - Active SEN

On June 19, 2024, the Labour Party announced plans to impose VAT on private school fees, sparking debate over the potential impact on students, particularly those with special educational needs (SEN). While the proposal is intended to raise additional funding for state schools, there are...

activesen.co.uk

From this gather that:

SEN children have less and less support in the state system, Its got worse over the years. Leaving these children with not the right support.

There are specialist schools that are private that can give good supportive educational environment for these children. But they are private fee paying.

So what I think you might be arguing is that this is a special case and these schools could be exempt?

Also its taking so long for parents to get their children a Education Health and Care Plan which would mean ( if I read this correctly ) that parents with a EHCP would get exemption from paying the extra VAT. So no increase in fees for those particular parents. Which to me seems fair.

A problem is the length of time and difficulty in getting an EHCP verified by the authorities. Is how I read this. Is that the case?

So SEN school are asking for exemption on VAT schools. TBF I'm not that against this given the reality

Of course what is really needed is proper SEN support in state system.

It looks to me that the Labour party proposals do take into account parents of children with SEN.

 

[nagapie]

Sorry when it comes to the so called independent schools system aka public schools I see red due to my experience.

I know SEN is something that concerns you and yes it does appear to be an issue that deserves some sympathy.

Tried to look the issue up and came across this.

The Labour Party's VAT Proposal on Private School Fees: What It Means for Pupils with Special Educational Needs - Active SEN

On June 19, 2024, the Labour Party announced plans to impose VAT on private school fees, sparking debate over the potential impact on students, particularly those with special educational needs (SEN). While the proposal is intended to raise additional funding for state schools, there are...

activesen.co.uk

From this gather that:

SEN children have less and less support in the state system, Its got worse over the years. Leaving these children with not the right support.

There are specialist schools that are private that can give good supportive educational environment for these children. But they are private fee paying.

So what I think you might be arguing is that this is a special case and these schools could be exempt?

Also its taking so long for parents to get their children a Education Health and Care Plan which would mean ( if I read this correctly ) that parents with a EHCP would get exemption from paying the extra VAT. So no increase in fees for those particular parents. Which to me seems fair.

A problem is the length of time and difficulty in getting an EHCP verified by the authorities. Is how I read this. Is that the case?

Of course what is really needed is proper SEN support in state system.

It looks to me that the Labour party proposals do take into account parents of children with SEN.

I do believe in funding the state system properly for SEN and ultimately the abolition of all private schools.
However it does seem like the private sector have stepped in, especially in autism education, and set up loads of specialist provisions to fill the gap. Many parents spend years trying to get their local authority to pay for these.
It shouldn't be this way so let's wait and see what Labour do with education and if they use this as a platform to make meaningful change.

 

[tim]

.

I'd read about children turning up to start school after the pandemic that were still in nappies because they hadn't been toilet-trained by their parents, which is mind boggling, but apparently some parents think that's part of the role of teacher, rather than basic parenting.

There's always reports about children starting school unable to use a knife and fork as well, although personally I wonder how many of those children come from cultures where people eat with their hands, rather than coming from a household where they don't eat with a knife a fork because they get chicken nuggets and chips that they eat with their hands, iyswim.

And as for socialisation, it's sad the number of children I see when out and about, eg in a café or fast food place where the mum is tapping away and engrossed in their phone and totally ignoring their child, or their child even has a device of their own. I once spent an hour in a hospital waiting room being driven mad by Baby Shark and other stuff on repeat by a toddler in a pushchair, mum totally ignoring their child.

Not just small children either. I was in a pizza place a while back in the evening where two parents were with a boy maybe between 8-10 years old. They were at the next table to me and I could barely hear myself think because the kid had a tablet and seemed to be watching a very loud action movie. No interaction with his parents except about what to eat.

There are kids growing up now who can probably barely form a sentence or have a conversation because they've had so little practice. It's really sad.

Other people's children, particularly working class kids, have always been judged horrible and badly behaved. As to the nappy anecdote that has been doing the reactionary rounds for decades.

 

[weltweit]

I could have sworn Labour were also going to remove private schools charitable status.

 

[tim]

Worth pointing out that schools are unlikely to pass on all the VAT. When it was removed from tampons etc prices didn't go down. Schools mostly will be charging how much they can get away with- they aren't charities after all...

UK retailers not passing on tampon tax savings to women, report says

Exclusive: Abolition of 5% VAT on period products only resulted in 1% cut in prices at most, research finds

www.theguardian.com

Most of them are charities which is a bigger issue than VAT on fees. As to fees, there was a scandal few years ago about price/fee fixing agreements between leading schools. This doesn't get much mention from the opponents of VAT.

 

[edcraw]

Most of them are charities which is a bigger issue than VAT on fees. As to fees, there was a scandal few years ago about price/fee fixing agreements between leading schools. This doesn't get much mention from the opponents of VAT.

The business rate relief they receive as charities is also being removed. Are there other benefits they get from being charities?

The big changes coming for private schools

The Labour government's changes will come into effect in January 2025

www.bbc.com

Edit: I guess tax relief on donations is one.

 

[Sweet FA]

nappy anecdote that has been doing the reactionary rounds

Reactionary or not, it's true.

There have always been children in reception classes who aren't fully toilet trained*, it goes with the territory. Generally those cases have been with families who need a lot of extra support. As Thora said, a lot of that support has been withdrawn. The end of Sure Start and the closure of local community centres was disastrous for many of our families.

There are a lot more children in nappies now (4 currently in my year R) and rather than it being an issue of supporting families to help their children, it is being pushed back at us as an issue we need to solve - we're teachers; we should teach them, as I was told at the beginning of this year.

Yes it's a small minority but it's a thing; it's not made up.








*I don't mean little accidents, though dear god, Year R can sometimes look more like a wee-related major incident than a little accident.

 

[Mr Retro]

Problem is that whilst it's all very well cheering this on, it's not going to make any difference.

We need to:

• Ban fee-paying schools.
• Seize all their assets and resources.
• Ban people with private educations from public office/service.

Then we might start to change stuff.

Agree that the schaudenfrade and cheering makes no difference to the kids in the state system. People, who don’t even have children of their own, might feel better that private school parents are paying more. Kids will still turn up to bad, overcrowded schools on the 6th of Jan. With no better future in sight.

However none of your suggestions have any chance of happening or are even legal. We don’t live in a communist dictatorship yet.

Getting rid of private education will only happen if the state system is more appealing. This will take a generation. The only way to do it is an overarching cross party strategy for the next 3-5-10-20 years to fundamentally overhaul the whole system. Give every child the educational experience they deserve.

 

[Dystopiary]

Problem is that whilst it's all very well cheering this on, it's not going to make any difference.

We need to:

• Ban fee-paying schools.
• Seize all their assets and resources.
• Ban people with private educations from public office/service.

Then we might start to change stuff.

A few thousand rich folk paying a few thousand extra quid for a bit is a wasted opportunity.

Yes. It's just performative bullshit. People need meaningful change and neither a tiny bit of schadenfreude nor this VAT will make a material difference to their lives.

 

[Hollis]

People, who don’t even have children of their own, might feel better that private school parents are paying more.

I'm not sure why people who don't have kids should give any more or less of a toss than people with kids. The principle behind state education is that it's a public good like healthcare and everybody should be able to access it. Private education isn't based on that principle - you're choosing to pay for what you think is a better service that will benefit your child.

 

[Sue]

Agree that the schaudenfrade and cheering makes no difference to the kids in the state system. People, who don’t even have children of their own, might feel better that private school parents are paying more. Kids will still turn up to bad, overcrowded schools on the 6th of Jan. With no better future in sight.

However none of your suggestions have any chance of happening or are even legal. We don’t live in a communist dictatorship yet.

Getting rid of private education will only happen if the state system is more appealing. This will take a generation. The only way to do it is an overarching cross party strategy for the next 3-5-10-20 years to fundamentally overhaul the whole system. Give every child the educational experience they deserve.

Yes. But by sending your child to a private school, I'm afraid I see you as part of the problem.

I'm not sure why people who don't have kids should give any more or less of a toss that people with kids. The principle behind state education is that it's a public good like healthcare and everybody should be able to access it. Private education isn't based on that principle - you're choosing to pay for what you think is a better service that will benefit your child.

Exactly this. We're a society, it's reasonable to have a view on stuff that affects that society. There are loads of NHS and social services, for example, that I don't (and am unlikely to ever) use. Doesn't mean I can't -- or shouldn't -- have views on them.