Unite against Fascism (UAF) has failed (?)

[Pickman's model]

Sounds to me like it amounts to some one said that guy looks like a BNP supporter, someone points out is X who is an ant-fascist so they went oh OK then. You make it sound like there were accusing other anti-fascists of being fascists when in fact it was just some crass stereotyping. Stupid but not malicious.

so you don't know what happened.

 

[emanymton]

I know what was in the link you posted, I think your comment about it was misleading, so I said it was disingenuous.

 

[Pickman's model]

The UAF people in that story are clearly prats, but your comment is disingenuous as that is not what happened.

I know what was in the link you posted, I think your comment about it was misleading, so I said it was disingenuous.

yeh? and the bit about 'you should expect to be called racist'? you've demonstrated you don't know what happened (in contradiction to the top post quoted here): stop digging before you reach china.

 

[emanymton]

Ok maybe my top post should have said that is not what the story you link to says.

The 'you should expect to be called racist' bit is clearly stupid but it is in no way the same thing as calling other anti-fascists fascists. In fact I think it implies the opposite as there is an implicit assumption that the person being spoken to is not a racist.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ok maybe my top post should have said that is not what the story you link to says.

The 'you should expect to be called racist' bit is clearly stupid but it is in no way the same thing as calling other anti-fascists fascists. In fact I think it implies the opposite as there is an implicit assumption that the person being spoken to is not a racist.

which part of 'stop digging' are you having trouble with?

 

[sihhi]

I don't agree with those who argue that the extreme elements of Islam is Fascist. But this has not occurred to me before. It's rather like the common ground the Zionists has with the Nazis both stress conflict and separation not unity.

There's no current day dynamic though.

Without 7/7 and the increasing profile of Islamists, the EDL would certianly not be as big, the UBA (remember them?) got about 50 people to a demo in Trafalger Square against Al-Muhajiroun.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

35 assorted anti fascists at a meeting last night to discuss an alternative to UAF in Manchester. Watch this space.

 

[TremulousTetra]

 

[TremulousTetra]

I don't agree with those who argue that the extreme elements of Islam is Fascist. But this has not occurred to me before. It's rather like the common ground the Zionists has with the Nazis both stress conflict and separation not unity.

it is as stupid as saying Stalin was a fascist. Of course his economic and social policy etc was very similar to Hitler's, there is very little practical difference between the two states, as there are elements of zionism and extreme Islam shared with fascism, but none of them are fascist/s.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Ok maybe my top post should have said that is not what the story you link to says.

The 'you should expect to be called racist' bit is clearly stupid but it is in no way the same thing as calling other anti-fascists fascists. In fact I think it implies the opposite as there is an implicit assumption that the person being spoken to is not a racist.

oh come on emanymton, you must have realized by now if you are not a member of the pickman/butchers club;

You're a fascist.

 

[Pickman's model]

oh come on emanymton, you must have realized by now if you are not a member of the pickman/butchers club;

You're a fascist.

fascist is not a synonym for thickie. therefore emanyton is not a fascist.

 

[TremulousTetra]

fascist is not a synonym for thickie. therefore emanyton is not a fascist.

you know your considered erudite cogent post's recently [ie collette thread] quite through me. Welcome back pickman.

 

[emanymton]

which part of 'stop digging' are you having trouble with?

The part where you seem to think I look like fool when I'm not the one who seems unable to understand the meaning of a link I posted

 

[audiotech]

oh come on emanymton, you must have realized by now if you are not a member of the pickman/butchers club;

You're a fascist.

You're becoming more of an embarrassment with each post.

 

[TremulousTetra]

You're becoming more of an embarrassment with each post.

you've been saying that for 5 years.

 

[TremulousTetra]

35 assorted anti fascists at a meeting last night to discuss an alternative to UAF in Manchester. Watch this space.

nice one. hope its successfull.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

nice one. hope its successfull.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Pickman's model]

you've been saying that for 5 years.

and it's been true each time.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Louis MacNeice

You never fail. You just can't compute the fucking obvious.

 

[sihhi]

oh come on emanymton, you must have realized by now if you are not a member of the pickman/butchers club;

You're a fascist.

This doesn't even make sense.

Neither Pickman's nor Butchers appeal to the state to take action, unlike UAF - jostled between the SWP and the shadowy Socialist Action - if you don't like what people are saying just ban them everywhere.

A gathering in a town centre with some chanting is "outside the bounds of legitimacy" according to Socialist Action.

The demand for EDL mobilisations to be banned is correct and should be supported. The only way to ensure the safety of the whole community is to deny the EDL the opportunity to incite violence by stating clearly that such demonstrations are outside the bounds of legitimate political activity in Britain.

http://www.socialistaction.net/Opposing-fascism-and-the-English-Defence-League.html

 

[TremulousTetra]

I love this 'corollary'. it kind of epitomises the entire straw man 'debates' that take place on here about the swp.

This doesn't even make sense.

Neither Pickman's nor Butchers appeal to the state to take action, unlike UAF - jostled between the SWP and the shadowy Socialist Action - if you don't like what people are saying just ban them everywhere.

A gathering in a town centre with some chanting is "outside the bounds of legitimacy" according to Socialist Action.



http://www.socialistaction.net/Opposing-fascism-and-the-English-Defence-League.html

"doesn't make sense", meaning swp/sa doesn't confirm our view. So this leads to Pickman's George Bush style politics, if you not with us you are against us [social fascism crap], and Louis MacNeice's "you must be lying".

Louis MacNeice

The culmination of which is the utterly deranged view, the SWP leadership is lying to its members, with the sole aim of getting a nice dacha when they rule the UK Stalin style.

Just because you are too lazy to understand your 'enemy', doesn't mean they don't make sense.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

The culmination of which is the utterly deranged view, the SWP leadership is lying to its members, with the sole aim of getting a nice dacha when they rule the UK Stalin style.

So dishonest RMP3; sliding together your take on Pickman's appreciation of the SWP with my estimation of you as a liar, just goes to show that my estimation was spot on. Incidentally, if you don't believe that the leadership of the SWP is at times less than straight forward with the membership, then you are a naive fool as well as a liar.

Louis MacNeice

p.s. can you think of any other justification for the leadership of the SWP dissembling to the membership, other than for their own material gain?

 

[TremulousTetra]

So dishonest RMP3; sliding together your take on Pickman's appreciation of the SWP with my estimation of you as a liar, just goes to show that my estimation was spot on. Incidentally, if you don't believe that the leadership of the SWP is at times less than straight forward with the membership, then you are a naive fool as well as a liar.

Louis MacNeice

p.s. can you think of any other justification for the leadership of the SWP dissembling to the membership, other than for their own material gain?

Can play you like a fiddle, you wanker.

LOOK YOUR COMMENTS!!!

p.s. can you think of any other justification for the leadership of the SWP dissembling to the membership, other than for their own material gain

if you don't believe that the leadership of the SWP is at times less than straight forward with the membership, then you are a naive fool as well as a liar.

This threads delineation of peoples caricature of the SWP, that masquerades as a political analysis, has nothing to do with my personal proclivities. There is a clear charge of dishonety for material gain, a clear conspiracy theory about the SWP.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

This threads delineation of peoples caricature of the SWP, that masquerades as a political analysis, has nothing to do with my personal proclivities. There is a clear charge of dishonety for material gain, a clear conspiracy theory about the SWP.

Not from me so why lie about it; is it something patahlogical? As for playing a fiddle; if you were able to string a coherent thought together that would be a start.

Louis MacNeice

 

[TremulousTetra]

Not from me so why lie about it; is it something patahlogical?
Louis MacNeice

but that isn't what I said is it?

This threads delineation of peoples caricature of the SWP, that masquerades as a political analysis, has nothing to do with my personal proclivities. There is a clear charge of dishonety for material gain, a clear conspiracy theory about the SWP.

your theory may differ slightly, but it leads you to the same conclusion, it is impossible for an x-SWP member to honest, ie honestly wish an [in your perception, 'enemy'] anti fascist organization success. Why wouldn't I wish them success? It is the goal that is important, not who scores it.

ETA;
You know, you have to think about this logically. If I am condemning pickman's social fascism approach, I am not going to adopt a similar social fascist approach to other anti-fascist organisations. The SWP always argued the demise of the communist party, the labour party left, and all the other left organisations was a bad thing. It made the left weaker. It is the same with anti-fascism. The demise of any group to inactivity, weakens the whole.

Of course each of those groups compete to influence the movement. And none of them is innocent of acting at times inappropriately. But my/swp attitude to the other anti-fascist/political groups is just pure common sense. If I am wrong, I hope those comrades are right, and achieve where I fail. The goal is more important, than who scores it.

 

[sihhi]

You know, you have to think about this logically. If I am condemning pickman's social fascism approach

I still don't understand what a social fascism approach is ?

Can someone - Louis, emanymton, Pickmans, rmp3, anyone - explain it to me (in 2010, please not 1931).

 

[TremulousTetra]

I still don't understand what a social fascism approach is ?

Can someone - Louis, emanymton, Pickmans, rmp3, anyone - explain it to me (in 2010, please not 1931).

Well the best thing is to discuss it with those people who seem to be perpetuating this1930s analysis. This appears to be>

Bizarre rally plans


A plan for antiracist demos in Keswick, Swansea, Plymouth, London on different weekends to counter an EDL demonstration two months later in Newcastle. (?)

Bizarre notions of how to defend yourself from the police:
Sun Tzu said:

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

You know neither the enemy nor yourself: therefore the stragegy outlined in the counterfire strategy is useless. The EDL is not the NF or BNP, they acknowledge it is 'a different kind of threat'. But they then go on to say that the methods used to defeat them 'must be similar'. That - at best - would only work if the NF and BNP were themselves defeated by those methods. And that is, I submit, questionable.

The fascists of the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s were not defeated by taking someone else's arguments into 'workplaces, union meetings, schools, colleges, mosques, churches and the rest'. They were defeated by men and women who were prepared to physically oppose them, not to utter mealy-mouthed and totally uninspiring slogans, but to get out on the streets and defend their areas, to attack fascist meetings and to give a reality to the slogan 'no platform'.

Riots like those at Red Lion Square, Southall, Lewisham ran the NF off the streets in the 1970s. The 1990s saw fascists defeated at Waterloo. Make no mistake, either anti-fascists go into this with their eyes open or they leave themselves facing defeat before even leaving their homes. There must be a diversity of tactics used to defeat fascists, be they the BNP, EDL, Blood and Honour or the NF. But - as Anti-Fascist Action realised - this diversity has to provide offering an alternative, a means by which the fascists can be undermined and around which opposition to them can crystallise. A positive culture of resistance has to be developed into which young men and women who may otherwise drift towards the EDL, BNP etc can join. AFA saw this as a cultural development, and put on a number of festivals which showed how this can work.

Basing opposition to the likes of the EDL round opposition to Islamophobia is allowing them to set the agenda. It isn't going to attract widespread support from people outside a certain range of backgrounds and opinions. And it ignores the fact that there is a strain of Islam, Islamism, which frankly deserves opposition. To make any headway against the BNP or EDL, the very real current of Islamism must be opposed as much as their white counterparts.

I find it very hard to see anything positive about sharing a platform with people from the Labour Party, a party which has yet to shoulder its share, the lion's share, of responsibility for the growth of fascist extremism in this country over the past decade. They are not part of the solution, they are as much part of the problem as Nick Griffin or the leadership of the EDL. The Labour Party has forfeited any right to address anti-fascists, or anyone else, as they have shown quite clearly that they are a corrupt party with the morals of a hyena, from the lies which took us into Iraq to the expenses scandal or the lies about the defeat of boom and bust. They have had their chance, and fluffed it. Indeed, listening to someone from the Labour Party is more likely to attract votes for the BNP than otherwise.
Nor has UAF anything to offer. Their knowledge of the far-right is as great as their knowledge of the bars of Ulan Bator. Yes, we all know that the EDL are nasty. But what are the UAF going to do about it? There is little empowering about shouting from behind police lines and relying on the police to defend you from the EDL. The UAF by their politics and their practice act as recruiting sergeants for the far-right. They describe longstanding anti-fascists as fascists (http://whitechapelanarchistgroup.wordpress.com/2010/04/17/united-against-fascists/). The BNP recognise the UAF as a boon, and have said as much on the London Patriot blog.

For real, serious, and effective opposition to the BNP and EDL a new approach is needed, one which recognises the reality of the enemy, which seeks to use imagination and guile as much as argument, which is prepared to act utterly ruthlessly to achieve its objective. Such opposition would be based on the politics of class, draw its inspiration from the likes of the 43 Group and Anti-Fascist Action, act without the hindrance of working with the police and strike where necessary. If - as the article above suggests - anti-fascism in this country is to work with ineffectual and moralising speechifiers and windbags from the Labour Party and sky-pilots from churches, I for one want nothing to do with it. I want instead a confident anti-fascism, which promotes a positive agenda of empowerment for the people the fascists seek to recruit. These people already despise the Labour Party, they despise the churches, and rightly so. It's time for anti-fascists to set the agenda, to stop responding to EDL provocations, and rather deal with the threat by any means which should prove effective.

Hence>

"They are" social fascist?

Also in a discussion years ago Butchers basicly supported the KPD's position of lableing the SDP social fascist, and the KPD not being prepared to unite with the SDP against fascism. It seems to me both butch and pick, base their analysis today, upon their analysis of the 1930s. And why not, those who ignore history are doomed to for ever relive it.

So they are the best source as to how this neo social fascist analysis applies in 2010.

 

[TremulousTetra]

but that isn't what I said is it? your theory may differ slightly, but it leads you to the same conclusion, it is impossible for an x-SWP member to honest, ie honestly wish an [in your perception, 'enemy'] anti fascist organization success. Why wouldn't I wish them success? It is the goal that is important, not who scores it.

ETA;
You know, you have to think about this logically. If I am condemning pickman's social fascism approach, I am not going to adopt a similar social fascist approach to other anti-fascist organisations. The SWP always argued the demise of the communist party, the labour party left, and all the other left organisations was a bad thing. It made the left weaker. It is the same with anti-fascism. The demise of any group to inactivity, weakens the whole.

Of course each of those groups compete to influence the movement. And none of them is innocent of acting at times inappropriately. But my/swp attitude to the other anti-fascist/political groups is just pure common sense. If I am wrong, I hope those comrades are right, and achieve where I fail. The goal is more important, than who scores it.

I notice Louis you are not big enough to admit you're accusation of me being a liar, has no evidence, was wrong. So no change there then.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I notice Louis you are not big enough to admit you're accusation of me being a liar, has no evidence, was wrong. So no change there then.

You lied and have just done so again; you are incurable...and stupid.

Louis MacNeice

p.s. I think I'll keep the above as a simple cut and paste for you in future.

 

[TremulousTetra]

You lied and have just done so again; you are incurable...and stupid.

Louis MacNeice

p.s. I think I'll keep the above as a simple cut and paste for you in future.

Cool. It displays the level of your 'politics'.