Undercover police had children with activists

[kenny g]

Intrigued by the second, unnamed case:

...and even more intrigued by the unnamed source for that case!

Probably the one who was writing for the guardian at one point and ex member of london greenpeace who is mentioned in the same article.

 

[laptop]

Probably the one who was writing for the guardian at one point and ex member of london greenpeace who is mentioned in the same article.

Er, according to the Telegraph catch-up story it was Lambert who was in Greenpeace (by which I presume they mean the quite different London Greenpeace).

 

[TopCat]

Given activist politics is full of blokes I wonder how many fellas are being duped right now? At least we can assume undercover female cops are on the pill?

 

[Callie]

I would have assumed that male undercover cops would have done all they could to avoid spawning.


Assumption, you and me matey.

Makes me feel a bit sick.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

An undercover policeman who spent seven years living as an environmental activist has claimed that at least 15 other agents had infiltrated the movement and disclosed that sexual entanglements with them were commonplace.<snip>

Mr Kennedy also disclosed that he knew of at least 15 other undercover police who had infiltrated the movement and said that by the time he left in 2009 there were at least four others.

“The world of undercover policing is grey and murky," he said.
“There is some bad stuff going on, really bad stuff.”

The scale of public money invested in such operations was also laid bare as he disclosed that in addition to his £50,000-a-year salary, his handlers paid up to £200,000 a year into a secret bank account to help him maintain his cover.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ea...rcover-police-infiltrated-green-movement.html

What the fuck was the reasoning behind sending "at least 15" police spies, at an apparently enormous cost, to infiltrate the green movement and shag hippies?

I mean, what possible rationale could there be that makes any sense to a sane person for doing that?

 

[Quartz]

The most obvious is to build up legends for when they're needed to infiltrate something more serious.

But are our senior police officers that forward thinking? I doubt it.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Presumably there is a parallel bunch of coppers living a lie in EDL circles, and at least one of them is swinging his blonde toddler round the room to a Prussian Blue record, wondering how he ended up in this mess, while the doting mum looks fondly at the pair over her Ayn Rand book.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

So, let's do the maths. Kennedy was undercover for 5 years. Let's assume that's typical. He was given £250,000 pa to fund his hippie shagging activities. Let's assume about the same in management costs.

15+1 (thanks Dave) hippy-shagging police spies, x 5 years, x half a million per head.

So that would be about £40 million pounds of public money, spent on funding police spy hippy-shagging activities of no discernable public benefit.

 

[DaveCinzano]

...15 hippy-shagging police spies...

16+.

"...Mr Kennedy also disclosed that he knew of at least 15 other undercover police who had infiltrated the movement..."

 

[Bernie Gunther]

16+.

"...Mr Kennedy also disclosed that he knew of at least 15 other undercover police who had infiltrated the movement..."

Ah, excellent point (adjusting figures accordingly)

 

[Quartz]

So, let's do the maths. Kennedy was undercover for 5 years. Let's assume that's typical. He was given £250,000 pa to fund his hippie shagging activities. Let's assume about the same in management costs.

Did you add an extra zero there?

 

[DaveCinzano]

No he did not.

The scale of public money invested in such operations was also laid bare as he disclosed that in addition to his £50,000-a-year salary, his handlers paid up to £200,000 a year into a secret bank account to help him maintain his cover.

 

[Blagsta]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ea...rcover-police-infiltrated-green-movement.html

What the fuck was the reasoning behind sending "at least 15" police spies, at an apparently enormous cost, to infiltrate the green movement and shag hippies?

I mean, what possible rationale could there be that makes any sense to a sane person for doing that?

Them hot hippy chicks.

 

[kenny g]

Don't forget that by disrupting any potential dissent they can argue that the job is well done.

Remember the widespread public support for RTS style actions- and the other road protests of the era.

Spending £40,000,000 on monitoring and disrupting movements that could cause billions in economic "damage" if allowed to develop is completely proportionate in their eyes.

The image you have of the protesters may be as ineffectual hippies. In a way that is as a result of being made ineffectual by well choreographed state infiltration. There have been times when protests have moved out from a hippy ghetto - it is then that the state works extra hard to neutralise.

I can remember Glastonbury green futures a few days after J18 back in '99 and the security service's were out in force.

 

[Quartz]

No he did not.

Colour my flabber well and truly ghasted. Unless, of course, they added an extra zero.

 

[butchersapron]

Who?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Don't forget that by disrupting any potential dissent they can argue that the job is well done.

Remember the widespread public support for RTS style actions- and the other road protests of the era.

Spending £40,000,000 on monitoring and disrupting movements that could cause billions in economic "damage" if allowed to develop is completely proportionate in their eyes.

The image you have of the protesters may be as ineffectual hippies. In a way that is as a result of being made ineffectual by well choreographed state infiltration. There have been times when protests have moved out from a hippy ghetto - it is then that the state works extra hard to neutralise.

I can remember Glastonbury green futures a few days after J18 back in '99 and the security service's were out in force.

Well yes, but I think the idea that such actions by largely unaccountable secret policemen are in any way in the public interest is one that should be strongly challenged.

 

[kenny g]

There are two separate strands to arguments against state infiltration.

1.The groups infiltrated are not a threat.

2. It is ineffective.

3. Therefore It is a waste of state money.

I would argue that 1 is incorrect, and so is 2. It follows that 3 is also incorrect.

You seem surprised that the police do not operate in the public interest. They did not when they were founded by Robert Peel and they still do not.

The interests of the state continue to be separate from those of the public. Unless you have a completely naive view of the state you should not be surprised.

 

[butchersapron]

There may be at least 2 - there's a few more though in reality isn't there?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

There may be at least 2 - there's a few more though in reality isn't there?

Obvious one used to be that not doing stuff like that was what made us 'better than the Easter Bloc countries' ...

I guess now they'd try to say 'Better than Iran' but I don't really see that we're any more democratic than Iran.

They have democracy, except a bunch of religious arseholes have a veto.

We have democracy, only a bunch of fucking bond traders have a veto.

 

[kenny g]

There may be at least 2 - there's a few more though in reality isn't there?

Yeh, true, last time I checked. How about:-

A strand of argument that appears commonplace against state infiltration is:-

1.The groups infiltrated are not a threat.

2. It is ineffective.

3. Therefore It is a waste of state money.

I would argue that 1 is incorrect, and so is 2. It follows that 3 is also incorrect.

You seem surprised that the police do not operate in the public interest. They did not when they were founded by Robert Peel and they still do not.

The interests of the state continue to be separate from those of the public. Unless you have a completely naive view of the state you should not be too surprised.

 

[butchersapron]

If there's a third that the poster you're replying to can identify (already has) then this is a pointless post - despite the truth of the wider banalities that it contains.

 

[kenny g]

If there's a third that the poster you're replying to can identify (already has) then this is a pointless post - despite the truth of the wider banalities that it contains.

my emphasis.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, to say what? To emphasise what?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Nothing significant that I could discern.

I gather kenny doesn't actually mean to defend police spies right?

He just wants to use the topic to have a go at people he thinks might be middle class ... ?

... because, you know, in the face of a complete takeover of our political institutions by interests so inimical to humanity they might as well be evil aliens from a science fiction movie, establishing your working class credentials by slagging people who might be middle class is the most important thing, right?

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeh, true, last time I checked. How about:-

A strand of argument that appears commonplace against state infiltration is:-

1.The groups infiltrated are not a threat.

2. It is ineffective.

3. Therefore It is a waste of state money.

I would argue that 1 is incorrect, and so is 2. It follows that 3 is also incorrect.

You seem surprised that the police do not operate in the public interest. They did not when they were founded by Robert Peel and they still do not.

The interests of the state continue to be separate from those of the public. Unless you have a completely naive view of the state you should not be too surprised.

if you're going to argue those groups are a threat, producing some evidence that they are a threat would be good. if you've got any, of course.

 

[ymu]

Exactly: the circumstances of conception make a big difference. And I'm making no assumptions: hence the question.

He asked you to think about it, not repeat your apologetics. Which of those circumstances makes a big difference, and why?

 

[free spirit]

if you're going to argue those groups are a threat, producing some evidence that they are a threat would be good. if you've got any, of course.

I was probably kidding myself, but for a few hours in 2005 when the police were having to use chinooks to fly in reinforcements over us to protect the G8 meeting at Gleneagles because they couldn't get there on the roads due to our blockades, it almost seemed like we actually might pose a bit of a threat.

 

[kenny g]

Nothing significant that I could discern.

I gather kenny doesn't actually mean to defend police spies right?

He just wants to use the topic to have a go at people he thinks might be middle class ... ?

... because, you know, in the face of a complete takeover of our political institutions by interests so inimical to humanity they might as well be evil aliens from a science fiction movie, establishing your working class credentials by slagging people who might be middle class is the most important thing, right?

WTF? Where have I mentioned the middle class in this thread??

I just think that police spies are effective and that it is hardly surprising that they are used against potentially effective movements. Don't forget that most of these undercover coppers were put in place by the state prior to any tory/ con-dem "takeover". The skills deployed were honed in Belfast. Don't be so surprised that the British state is happy to use the same tactics on the mainland to keep order.

Look at the 30 year rule releases post 1981 disturbances and you will see the extent the state is more than happy to go to. It is hardly a takeover by an alien force. It is an alien force.

 

[dylanredefined]

Have the environmental activists done anything apart from embarrass the police or a minor bit of criminal damage cutting fences etc?
The police /Intelligence services should be able to do this sort of stuff against groups that threaten the state/people.Criminals terrorists etc.People like that should live short brutal lives full of fear and paranoia.
Once the group the state suspects turn out not to be the evil terrorists they were suspected of being they should stop.
This was coppers playing at spies at the tax payers expense.No real risk to the cop I doubt anyone was going to put him into an unmarked grave after a torture session much as people might feel like it.And,certainly the group infiltrated posed no risk to the general public or anyone else.
No idea what the women should do.Certainly someone owes them an apology and child support at the very least.