Undercover police had children with activists

[littlebabyjesus]

don't buy it, if we lock up teenagers for fondling their mates then having sex and a family is definitely sexual assault. how could you give any kind of consent if you have been entirely mislead, surely it's Coercion.

Nah, and it's right that it isn't, tbh. What about if a man pretended to be a vegetarian when he isn't, and the woman considers all meat eaters to be scum? What about if the man was an Arab and pretended to be Jewish to get sex?

That second example is from a real case in Israel of a man who was convicted of rape. They have a law that could cover this kind of thing, and it's not right.

 

[purenarcotic]

How absolutely disgusting.

 

[butchersapron]

how is it not the important point. a person has been deliberately mislead through the actions of the state and it's operatives and started a family under the guise of a police action.

the officers involved, their handlers and the home secretary are responsible and should be jailed (as hanging isn't allowed).

Because there is no legal basis for your blustering.

Now, ruin the thread.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Nah, and it's right that it isn't, tbh. What about if a man pretended to be a vegetarian when he isn't, and the woman considers all meat eaters to be scum? What about if the man was an Arab and pretended to be Jewish to get sex?

That second example is from a real case in Israel of a man who was convicted of rape. They have a law that could cover this kind of thing, and it's not right.

i dunno I think there's a world of difference between not eating meat and pretending to be an entirely other person.

but hey...

if as is claimed the guidelines prohibit this type of things then surely this is just a continuation of a catalouge of errors where those in charge need to be brought to task as do those who acted in this manner.

 

[equationgirl]

How deeper could they go?

I don't know, and that's what concerns me/

 

[gawkrodger]

and people wonder why we hate the police

Utter scum

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Because there is no legal basis for your blustering.

Now, ruin the thread.

no legal basis for an investigation and charges to be brought against the officers, their handlers or the mp responsible for them at the time...

really that's your claim...

ok...

why even start the thread then... oh wait you're being a cock again aren't you...

when will you learn to grow up and stop being a child?

 

[butchersapron]

Now, ruin the thread.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

love you've already done that by describing the victims as unimportant...

 

[Quartz]

Were the children deliberately conceived by the parents, or did the mother say she was on the pill when she wasn't, or were they the results of contraception failing?

 

[TopCat]

Fucking police. Fucking state.

 

[DownwardDog]

Legally where do they stand? Is there a law against obtaining consent under false pretences?

ETA:

Apparently not. Appears that this only applies to tricking someone into having sex when they think they're doing something else.

If they're going to lock up every bloke that ever lied to get a ride we're going to need a lot of prisons.

 

[newbie]

Were the children deliberately conceived by the parents, or did the mother say she was on the pill when she wasn't, or were they the results of contraception failing?

yers, this is hardly the first ever case of a woman having sex with a man who turned out to be a liar. Or v-v.

What distinguishes it, however, is the institutionalised nature of the lying, its sanction by senior law enforcement officials and the continuation of the policy.

 

[butchersapron]

Were the children deliberately conceived by the parents, or did the mother say she was on the pill when she wasn't, or were they the results of contraception failing?

Think about what the first situation entails - a copper deliberately having children in an undercover role.

Think about what the second scenario says about your assumptions.

Think about what the third situation says about the behaviour of the coppers after conception (as outlined in the link in the OP)

 

[butchersapron]

If they're going to lock up every bloke that ever lied to get a ride we're going to need a lot of prisons.

That's what you take from this? It's ok, its just what blokes do? He wasn't acting as a bloke though was he?

 

[TopCat]

The emotional impact on the mothers and children involved must be devastating.

 

[Quartz]

Think about what the first situation entails - a copper deliberately having children in an undercover role.

Think about what the second scenario says about your assumptions.

Think about what the third situation says about the behaviour of the coppers after conception (as outlined in the link in the OP)

Exactly: the circumstances of conception make a big difference. And I'm making no assumptions: hence the question.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Just when I thought I couldn't be shocked by the filth's behaviour, looks like they've upped their game.

Scum.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Nah, and it's right that it isn't, tbh. What about if a man pretended to be a vegetarian when he isn't, and the woman considers all meat eaters to be scum?

The comparison is only valid if the man were planning to eat the woman in question.

 

[ViolentPanda]

These revelations will also help fuel the conspirathons that are ongoing in some activist circles too.

Frankly, I'm "surprised that people are surprised" about this, IYSWIM. The great undeclared purpose of the state is to perpetuate itself and insinuate itself everywhere. You need to ask yourself "what wouldn't the state do in pursuit of the interests of power?", because then you'd realise that there is quite obviously NOTHING that the state will not sanction or engineer.

 

[DotCommunist]

These revelations will also help fuel the conspirathons that are ongoing in some activist circles too.

Frankly, I'm "surprised that people are surprised" about this, IYSWIM. The great undeclared purpose of the state is to perpetuate itself and insinuate itself everywhere. You need to ask yourself "what wouldn't the state do in pursuit of the interests of power?", because then you'd realise that there is quite obviously NOTHING that the state will not sanction or engineer.

'currently' going? I met an old wrp man who was convinced the party failed because it was (is it still going?) absolutely riddled with agents of the state.

at the time I thought he was just a paranoid old boy but you read shit like this and you have to wonder

 

[ViolentPanda]

'currently' going? I met an old wrp man who was convinced the party failed because it was (is it still going?) absolutely riddled with agents of the state.

at the time I thought he was just a paranoid old boy but you read shit like this and you have to wonder

I'm referring specifically to the conspiracy theories voiced by some sections of the "Occupy" movement, but your point is a good one: conspiracy theories around the marginal political groupings have always been there, and most of them (unlike the "international bankers"-linked nonsense) had a basis in reality, insofar as state infiltration was concerned.

Mind you, as far as the WRP was concerned, some of the infiltration stories were manufactured by Healy and his partisans to deflect attention from Healy's fondness for forcing hs attentions on female members.

 

[paolo]

I'm referring specifically to the conspiracy theories voiced by some sections of the "Occupy" movement, but your point is a good one: conspiracy theories around the marginal political groupings have always been there, and most of them (unlike the "international bankers"-linked nonsense) had a basis in reality, insofar as state infiltration was concerned.

Mind you, as far as the WRP was concerned, some of the infiltration stories were manufactured by Healy and his partisans to deflect attention from Healy's fondness for forcing hs attentions on female members.

The problem with extrapolating this stuff into 'all shit is not just possible, but likely' is that you start jumping at shadows. If the cops wanted to sow seeds of discontent, now they can do it without even leaving the office. Just imagine, activists having no end of rows or feeling hamstrung, without a single officer in the field?

So: being cynical is good to a point; but being too cynical is playing into their hands.

 

[newbie]

'currently' going? I met an old wrp man who was convinced the party failed because it was (is it still going?) absolutely riddled with agents of the state.

at the time I thought he was just a paranoid old boy but you read shit like this and you have to wonder

they were selling Newsline in Brixton last saturday.

Long history in this area, their bookshop was on Atlantic Road for many years, didn't shut that long ago.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The problem with extrapolating this stuff into 'all shit is not just possible, but likely' is that you start jumping at shadows. If the cops wanted to sow seeds of discontent, now they can do it without even leaving the office. Just imagine, activists having no end of rows or feeling hamstrung, without a single officer in the field?

Well, we can quash any idea of that taking place, purely because the OB are as instrumentalist as fuck when it comes to protecting their interests. They'd put people in the field merely to justify their budget, let alone to gather intelligence.

So: being cynical is good to a point; but being too cynical is playing into their hands.

Hence my differentiation between possible/plausible stuff and "international bankers" crap.

 

[manny-p]

That's the two you know about at this point as well.

This. The police are no doubt hiding numerous other cases.

 

[kenny g]

I strongly suspect they are using more female deep cover operatives as a result of all this. Personally I only fully trust people I have known since child hood; or folks who have been around since the year dot. Fucked up I know but there is always the suspicion that someone is working elsewhere. The problem is that by seeding mistrust they are winning to a large extent.

 

[Kippa]

A little paranoia can be rather healthy, so long as it doesn't severely impact on your daily routine.

 

[manny-p]

I strongly suspect they are using more female deep cover operatives as a result of all this.

Interesting if what you say proves to be true.

 

[laptop]

Intrigued by the second, unnamed case:

The Guardian understands that as he had access to the official monitoring reports, he regularly read details of her life with a close interest. He watched as she grew older and brought up their child as a single parent, according to an individual who is aware of the details of the case.

The policeman has been "haunted" by the experience of having no contact with the child, whom he thought about regularly, according to the individual.

...and even more intrigued by the unnamed source for that case!