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Ukraine

quiquaquo said:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/

"The less Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the more they want U.S. to intervene"
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:D :(

We found that only one out of six Americans can find Ukraine on a map, and that this lack of knowledge is related to preferences: The farther their guesses were from Ukraine’s actual location, the more they wanted the U.S. to intervene with military force.
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I've just failed to find a reference to the comedian who said (at the time of Iraq II?) that there should be an amendment to the US Constitution forbidding the Executive to invade any country unless it shows that a majority of citizens can find the target's two largest cities on a map.
 
butchersapron said:
What's this, a Czech group?

War preparations between Ukraine and Russia – Show or reality?
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A 3 month after update on this text:

Neither Ukrainian nor Russian! – Let’s develop our own camp, the third camp, that of social revolution!

When we wrote some months ago in our text, “War preparations between Ukraine and Russia – Show or Reality?”i that the conditions for a new war ripen in Ukraine, many comrades expressed doubts or even disagreements with such a categorical statement. Now we can say that the conflict in Ukraine has clearly switched from the “cold” phase to the “hot” one and that what we are currently witnessing in the east of the country is the war by all definitions. From Lugansk on the border with Russia to Mariupol on the Black Sea coast two military forces compete in daily clashes when trying to enlarge the area under their control, they fight on the ground as well as in the air, in countryside as well as in industrial centers, artilleries shell villages, air forces bomb cities (under the pretext that their enemy uses the inhabitants as living shields), men, women, children die under the bombs and missiles… In four months of armed conflict more than 2,000 civilians and militaries have been killed and 6,000 others injured; 117,000 proletarians have been internally displaced and 730,000 others found refuge in Russia. Just as we were on the point of finishing this article dead bodies are strewn over the streets of Donetsk, caught in a government’s offensive stranglehold.
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It is really disappointing there has not been any noticeable 'third party' in this conflict. Even in the UK, the issue seems to be, "Support the Ukrainian hardliners, no inch to the Russian menace!"
 
DairyQueen said:
It is really disappointing there has not been any noticeable 'third party' in this conflict. Even in the UK, the issue seems to be, "Support the Ukrainian hardliners, no inch to the Russian menace!"
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The Cold War, the Cuban crisis etc still resonates in the west.
 
Oh now that threats are being made the BBC notice Right Sector....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28825307

But it faced a new challenge on Sunday as the leader of the ultra-nationalist Right Sector threatened to withdraw volunteers fighting on the government side.

Dmytro Yarosh said Right Sector would launch a "campaign in Kiev" if its demands, including the release of detained members, were not met within 48 hours.

He called on President Petro Poroshenko to "immediately bring order" to the Interior Ministry, which he accused of harbouring "revanchist forces".
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Analysis: David Stern, BBC News, Kiev
Ukraine's government seems to have made a devil's bargain, by allowing the formation of loosely-controlled paramilitary groups to fight in the country's east.

That some of these volunteers are ultranationalists, far-right extremists and sometimes even neo-Nazis seemed to be worth the gamble. Anyone who was willing to risk his life to defend Ukraine at this critical juncture was welcome.

Also figuring into their logic was the fact that the insurgency itself is a more pressing threat than far-right fighters, that these individuals are a minority among the Ukrainian forces and that Nazis and extremists are heavily represented among the pro-Russian militants.

Still, there has been virtually no public debate about whether it was a good idea to give guns to people and groups with extremist views. Now, with Right Sector threatening to march on the capital to enforce their demands, maybe this very overdue discussion will begin.
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Well thats one way of putting it I suppose! Laughable in places.
 
elbows said:
Oh now that threats are being made the BBC notice Right Sector....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28825307

Well thats one way of putting it I suppose! Laughable in places.
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This could mean that the far-right have accomplished their original mission to the new Ukrainian regime, and are now more a hindrance to freedomisation.

"There has been no public debate about whether it was a good idea to give guns to people and groups with extremist views." What a load of shite. It is almost certainly true that there have been no debate in a very narrow bubble that BBC expose themselves to. For the BBC to start going on an anti-fash crusade now is almost as hypocritical/self-defeating as their position on the Syrian conflict and their shock at the rise of ISIS in Iraq.
 
elbows said:
Oh now that threats are being made the BBC notice Right Sector....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28825307


  • German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier says a new political impetus is needed to resolve the crisis and to avoids further escalation
  • The Russian, Ukrainian, German and French foreign ministers are scheduled to hold talks on the eastern Ukraine crisis in Berlin later on Sunday
Just give Russia the bits it wants, the EU has form in this department
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elbows said:
Oh now that threats are being made the BBC notice Right Sector....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28825307





Well thats one way of putting it I suppose! Laughable in places.
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Also figuring into their logic was the fact that the insurgency itself is a more pressing threat than far-right fighters, that these individuals are a minority among the Ukrainian forces and that Nazis and extremists are heavily represented among the pro-Russian militants.
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What's this bit about? I was under the impression the rebels were mainly anti-facist, and one of their main complaints about the government was that it had been taken over by nazis.

Has this changed or is this a smear from the bbc?
 
free spirit said:
What's this bit about? I was under the impression the rebels were mainly anti-facist, and one of their main complaints about the government was that it had been taken over by nazis.

Has this changed or is this a smear from the bbc?
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in this video Times journalist mark franchetti causes a bit of a stir among Ukrainians when he gives his impressions of the insurgents after spending weeks embedded among them . Hes certainly no lover of the Kremlin .
Although im sure the resident uberliberals on here will be a bit miffed too at their pious narrative being contradicted.
 
butchersapron said:
Don't be under impressions then ffs.
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During this time, the TV channels subject to the Russian regime keep silent about Strelkov. Why? Because Putin is afraid of his return to Russia after the military campaign in Ukraine. So says Boris Nemtsov, one of the most prominent leaders of the opposition to Putin. Nemtsov has no doubtthat Strelkov and his “volunteer militia” will lose.

“Sooner or later, this war will end, and Strelkov with his comrades-in-arms will be obliged to return to Russia. Of course, the fighters of his ‘militia’ are aware that Putin has betrayed them, and it is quite understandable that they will return to Russia very angry. Because not only did the Kremlin not annex Donbass to Russia, but it did not even send its army there”, Nemtsov writes. “Putin is a traitor, a rascal and a scoundrel”; in Nemtsov’s opinion, “this is exactly how Putin is seen by the people fighting in the Donbass”. Upon their return, “the people could precisely support these ‘heroic militiamen’ about whom the Russian media have spoken so much”. Meanwhile, “they will certainly not take kid gloves to the Muscovite traitors”. 29 June, 2014.

So, there is a glimmer of hope that this 'adventurism' could come back and savage Putins arse?
 
coley said:
During this time, the TV channels subject to the Russian regime keep silent about Strelkov. Why? Because Putin is afraid of his return to Russia after the military campaign in Ukraine. So says Boris Nemtsov, one of the most prominent leaders of the opposition to Putin. Nemtsov has no doubtthat Strelkov and his “volunteer militia” will lose.

“Sooner or later, this war will end, and Strelkov with his comrades-in-arms will be obliged to return to Russia. Of course, the fighters of his ‘militia’ are aware that Putin has betrayed them, and it is quite understandable that they will return to Russia very angry. Because not only did the Kremlin not annex Donbass to Russia, but it did not even send its army there”, Nemtsov writes. “Putin is a traitor, a rascal and a scoundrel”; in Nemtsov’s opinion, “this is exactly how Putin is seen by the people fighting in the Donbass”. Upon their return, “the people could precisely support these ‘heroic militiamen’ about whom the Russian media have spoken so much”. Meanwhile, “they will certainly not take kid gloves to the Muscovite traitors”. 29 June, 2014.

So, there is a glimmer of hope that this 'adventurism' could come back and savage Putins arse?
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They would be crushed. I doubt they will be allowed to associate. A march on the kremlin - they're be lucky to get out alive.
 
its the sheer arrogance of the toynbee kind 'little has been said of' etc

yeah, it has, you are just too up your own bbc/media bubble arses to notice anything that hasn't crossed an editors desk

As has been said, we have lives to lead and while being deeply interested in the subject, most rely on people who have time/ facilities to research the subject in depth, now if some reject/dispute the information provided, then let the 'bun fight' ensue
 
It does not look like the conflict is close to being over in Ukraine. While some towns have been taken, I am sure that Ukraine will have to make some compromise with the Donbass sooner or later. Personally, I cannot see this region staying part of Ukraine after this conflict. Sure, there is a bit of anti-Putin rhetoric now, but somehow I don't think the people of the Donbass hate Putin half as much as they will Kyiv. One has shelled towns and have killed, if we are honest, hundreds of people (probably thousands), the other hasn't (although has stirred the shit a fair bit).
 
Bit of a shit journo this Mark Franchetti if he went to donabass and manged to miss all this. Unless the decades long far-right record of Strelov and kamerads was invented,.
 
butchersapron said:
Bit of a shit journo this Mark Franchetti if he went to donabass and manged to miss all this. Unless the decades long far-right record of Strelov and kamerads was invented,.
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It could be. The fact Ukraine has lost at least three jets suggests capability far beyond that of a few defectors. Having said that, the idea that everyone (maybe even most) fighting Kyiv is Russian army seems like pretty blatant propaganda to me.
 
coley said:
its the sheer arrogance of the toynbee kind 'little has been said of' etc

yeah, it has, you are just too up your own bbc/media bubble arses to notice anything that hasn't crossed an editors desk

As has been said, we have lives to lead and while being deeply interested in the subject, most rely on people who have time/ facilities to research the subject in depth, now if some reject/dispute the information provided, then let the 'bun fight' ensue
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i was on about elbows quote from a beeb journo, 'little public debate has been had' etc bollocks.
 
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