U.K. Heat and Buildings Strategy, £450m available to homeowners

[MrCurry]

15k was the price quoted on the segment on PM on Radio 4 last night.

Fair enough. Just listened to it here (from 36:10). A couple of things. The posh guy in Putney who paid £15k for his shiny new system was undoubtedly ripped off and suffered for being (a) a posh twat whose supplier saw him coming (b) an early adopter in a market which is lacking competition in this space so far. He probably got Pimlico plumbers to install it.

I have some perspective on this because I paid less than £15k to get a ground source heat pump system installed into my house in Sweden four years ago, and that included drilling 180m deep borehole in the back garden. Heat pumps are very widely used over here, both air source and ground source and the latter cost more to install but are more efficient to run because they can pull +8C out the ground while the ambient is -15C in winter.

Since air source installations are much cheaper to install and everything costs less in U.K. than here, plus U.K. houses are smaller, I’d expect once the market gets competitive you’ll get down to £8-10k turnkey prices, less the £5k subsidy that’s making them comparable to gas boilers which is the whole point of the policy they announced yesterday.

The expert who was put on air by R4 to explain heat pumps did a sucky job, talking about refrigerant liquid / gas states instead of simply telling people what a heat pump does. All she needed to say was they use electricity to pump the heat from the air outside, into the house heating and hot water system.

 

[MrCurry]

Isn't it expensive on the leccy bill?

My electric bill came down significantly after getting a heat pump system installed, mainly because it produces hot water much more efficiently than the previous electric immersion tank.

 

[MrCurry]

Do they require annual services? Always a pain with my gas boiler as it is behind my washing machine which i have to remove for the gas engineer to get to it.

Some filters to be cleaned every two years, which you could easily do yourself if you read the manual. I’m sure that won’t stop the installers selling people expensive service contracts though, they won’t miss that trick.

 

[MrCurry]

Pure speculation but perhaps the strategy behind this is to get wealthier households to jump at the opportunity to get a free £5k to upgrade to a heat pump, which in turn will create the scale required to bring down the cost for lower income households in the long term.

Probably yes. If they’re looking to switch the bulk of the U.K. housing stock from one type of heating to another they will need to do it in stages in any case. As the economics of these systems change over time they‘ll doubtless change the incentives.

 

[MrCurry]

Remember who's doing this and think, is it this rational concept that will improve peoples lives, or are they just bunging their mates £450 mill?

fair point! I wonder how many Tories bought shares in heat pump companies while this was all at consultation stage.

 

[moochedit]

My electric bill came down significantly after getting a heat pump system installed, mainly because it produces hot water much more efficiently than the previous electric immersion tank.

I don't have an electric immersion tank just a gas combi boiler so in my case my electric bill would go up although partly offset by having no gas bill (my oven is electric).

 

[JimW]

I live in a block of 8 flats (owned by 3 different landlords) would we have one of those things for the whole block or one each? If it's a communal one who is going to pay for the leccy to run it? Who gets to decide when it gets switched on?
I leave my gas key out as long for possible to save on the standing charge but if one of these things heats the whole block then I can forsee many arguments as to when it gets turned on, who should pay for that, whose freeloading on other tenants leccy bills. Who pays for the thing to be installed anyway. The cheap cunt who owns mine owns four of the others and you'd expect him to pay five-eights but I know damn well he won't want to pay more than a third even if the council sends someone to break his legs to get him to pay anything.

Heating on day is November 15 still for Beijing and people largely put up with one size fits all (obviously you can use a bar heater before etc if you want/can afford), date does sometimes get brought forward in a cold snap. Obviously legacy of state control affects attitudes.
Out in country now and have electric powered underfloor pipes, theres a subsidised night leccy rate for that that similarly only applies in winter months.

 

[MrCurry]

I don't have an electric immersion tank just a gas combi boiler so in my case my electric bill would go up although partly offset by having no gas bill (my oven is electric).

Yes. I don’t think anyone can say how much it would rise by, but as long as you’re not amongst the earliest of adopters there will be plenty of anecdotal evidence from others as to how their new heat pump electric bill compares to their old electric + gas bills. Might be more favourable than you think though, since heat pumps are basically very efficient which is why they’re low carbon.

 

[what]

Yes. I don’t think anyone can say how much it would rise by, but as long as you’re not amongst the earliest of adopters there will be plenty of anecdotal evidence from others as to how their new heat pump electric bill compares to their old electric + gas bills. Might be more favourable than you think though, since heat pumps are basically very efficient which is why they’re low carbon.

The only large scale field test of heat pumps in the UK showed an average COP of 2, i.e for each unit of electricity you get 2 units of heat. So as elecy is 5 times the cost of gas per KWh the bill should rise by 5/2 or 2.5 times. Thats if you are lucky enough to get a COP of 2.

 

[MrCurry]

The only large scale field test of heat pumps in the UK showed an average COP of 2, i.e for each unit of electricity you get 2 units of heat. So as elecy is 5 times the cost of gas per KWh the bill should rise by 5/2 or 2.5 times. Thats if you are lucky enough to get a COP of 2.

Interesting. I’d expect a lot more than 2, as ambient temps in U.K. are rarely below -3C. What were the conditions of this test and who published it? What kind of air source heat pumps - the specialised ones designed for whole home heating and hot water, or the type that is basically an air conditioner but can be run in reverse to blow warm air indoors for heating?

 

[what]

The only large scale field test of heat pumps in the UK showed an average COP of 2, i.e for each unit of electricity you get 2 units of heat. So as elecy is 5 times the cost of gas per KWh the bill should rise by 5/2 or 2.5 times. Thats if you are lucky enough to get a COP of 2.

It was done by the energy saving trust. link here

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/sites/default/files/EST_Heat_Pump_Trials%20part%202a.pdf

 

[Leafster]

It was done by the energy saving trust. link here

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/sites/default/files/EST_Heat_Pump_Trials%20part%202a.pdf

I wonder if there's been any improvement in performance since that EST trail was done in 2010.

I had been led to believe that you'd expect a COP of between 3 to 4 nowadays. Although I think they're still saying ground source heat pumps will be more efficient than air source ones.

 

[what]

I wonder if there's been any improvement in performance since that EST trail was done in 2010.

I had been led to believe that you'd expect a COP of between 3 to 4 nowadays. Although I think they're still saying ground source heat pumps will be more efficient than air source ones.

The COP of 3 to 4 is manufacturers claims and does not differ much from around 2010 when the trials were done

 

[MrCurry]

It was done by the energy saving trust. link here

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/sites/default/files/EST_Heat_Pump_Trials%20part%202a.pdf

Interesting info, thanks. It’s better than nothing, but fairly limited anyway, since they only looked at 29 installations with air source heat pumps and 54 with ground source and there must’ve been huge variations in the system types as they covered all of these various situations:

*Heat pumps installed in private and social housing
properties
••Heat pumps installed in new-build and retrofit installations
••Heat pumps providing heating only
••Heat pumps providing heating and hot water
••Heat pumps installed with different heat delivery systems: under-floor heating and/or radiators

It says the ground source systems included both ground loop (ie. just below the surface) and borehole systems, so the varying results from 1.2 COP up to 3.2 is not surprising given the ground loop ones would have very cold heat sources during winter.

I don’t think those results from Nov 2008 would be representative of what well designed and properly installed systems should deliver in 2022 onwards, but as a worst case scenario your COP 2.0 assumption is probably fair.

 

[Saul Goodman]

My mate uses ground source heat pumps to heat his building. He reckons he's getting a COP of ~4. Air source were around 2 at the time he had them installed (around 5 years ago).

 

[MrCurry]

My mate uses ground source heat pumps to heat his building. He reckons he's getting a COP of ~4. Air source were around 2 at the time he had them installed (around 5 years ago).

How does he measure the energy input and output from the heatpump to be able to calculate the COP? Would need some very specialist equipment I would think.

 

[Saul Goodman]

How does he measure the energy input and output from the heatpump to be able to calculate the COP? Would need some very specialist equipment I would think.

I doubt you'd need any specialist equipment, just the necessary knowledge to perform the calculations, and his area of expertise is radiators and heat exchangers (he designs and builds them), so I guess he knows how to calculate it.

 

[MrCurry]

I doubt you'd need any specialist equipment, just the necessary knowledge to perform the calculations, and his area of expertise is radiators and heat exchangers (he designs and builds them), so I guess he knows how to calculate it.

How would you have the numbers to perform the calculations without measuring equipment?

 

[weltweit]

There are an estimated 27.8 million UK households, that £450m makes £16.80 each

Estimated UK homeowners 14.6 million households which would be £30.82 each

Not going to get much heat source pumps for that.

 

[Saul Goodman]

How would you have the numbers to perform the calculations without measuring equipment?

I'm guessing because heat exchange is a science he's well educated in. Like I said, he builds radiators and heat exchangers, so I'm guessing he knows how heat transfer works, but I can pass on your contact details to him if you'd like to quiz him about it?

 

[MrCurry]

I'm guessing because heat exchange is a science he's well educated in. Like I said, he builds radiators and heat exchangers, so I'm guessing he knows how heat transfer works, but I can pass on your contact details to him if you'd like to quiz him about it?

No, that’s ok. It’s just the COP is the total energy output from the system over a period of time (ideally a year) divided by the energy consumed. So I’m not sure how you could calculate that without measurements, however much you know about heat exchange science. But nevermind, I didn’t mean to give you the third degree about it. If he’s getting 4, that’s very good.

 

[moochedit]

How long til the phone scammers get into this?

 

[Riklet]

Fucking glad im moving somewhere with a good modern condenser boiler personally!

Air source heat pumps are an inappropriate solution for the UK's crappy leaky old housing stock. A lot more could be achieved with less. This is, as ever, a shameless attempt to pump a load of money into the private sector (mmm green capitalists), regardless of whether it's really right in the short medium or long term.

IMO the money should be spent on insulating and improving housing generally. In Scandanvia they have triple glazed windows and solidly built housing... that needs to come first. This would help with addressing both emissions and poor living conditions. A load of barely qualified dudes putting in air source pumps isnt going to achieve much.

If the gov were really serious and wanted to spend big money, what about:

• Massive investment in district heating
• Use the existing natural gas system for hydrogen and encourage hydrogen boilers
• Provide air and ground heat pumps for big buildings and blocks first as communal heating
• Good old solar panels on roofs and grants for this plus battery storage and water heating. Could even be done for whole streets.

 

[WouldBe]

Fucking glad im moving somewhere with a good modern condenser boiler personally!

Air source heat pumps are an inappropriate solution for the UK's crappy leaky old housing stock. A lot more could be achieved with less. This is, as ever, a shameless attempt to pump a load of money into the private sector (mmm green capitalists), regardless of whether it's really right in the short medium or long term.

IMO the money should be spent on insulating and improving housing generally. In Scandanvia they have triple glazed windows and solidly built housing... that needs to come first. This would help with addressing both emissions and poor living conditions. A load of barely qualified dudes putting in air source pumps isnt going to achieve much.

If the gov were really serious and wanted to spend big money, what about:

• Massive investment in district heating
• Use the existing natural gas system for hydrogen and encourage hydrogen boilers
• Provide air and ground heat pumps for big buildings and blocks first as communal heating
• Good old solar panels on roofs and grants for this plus battery storage and water heating. Could even be done for whole streets.

Spot on. Hydrogen is a far better way to go. If everything goes electric the entire electrical grid will need to be upgraded when loads of energy could be pumped through the gas pipes.

 

[StoneRoad]

Not impressed with the idea of pumping hydrogen about, unless they have a way of making it less likely to catch fire / blow up if any leaks / escapes from custody.

And I would expect that most pipework would need upgrading

 

[Artaxerxes]

No, that’s ok. It’s just the COP is the total energy output from the system over a period of time (ideally a year) divided by the energy consumed. So I’m not sure how you could calculate that without measurements, however much you know about heat exchange science. But nevermind, I didn’t mean to give you the third degree about it. If he’s getting 4, that’s very good.

I assume if he's living in a house and he's gone to the effort of installing this shit he's taken measurements.

 

[WouldBe]

Not impressed with the idea of pumping hydrogen about, unless they have a way of making it less likely to catch fire / blow up if any leaks / escapes from custody.

Not a lot different then to the current methane we use.

And I would expect that most pipework would need upgrading

Most of the grid has been upgraded to something I thought was ok with hydrogen. There will be problems in Leeds if they go ahead with the hydrogen trial and the pipes can't cope with it.

 

[bluescreen]

I have a dumb question for people who have heat pumps: are they noisy? Do the neighbours find them noisy?

 

[WouldBe]

I have a dumb question for people who have heat pumps: are they noisy? Do the neighbours find them noisy?

They can be. Advice I saw when looking was to go and have a look at one working before deciding.

 

[mentalchik]

I could see this being tricky on a 3rd floor flat.

Yes....i live in a fifth floor flat in a huge block (one half HA and council, other half private).....how would any of this work...literally hundreds of flats