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Turkey, ISIS, Kurds and Syria

Pickman's model said:
read the words.
Click to expand...

Pickman's, it's hardly news that Enver Pasha had pan-Turkic ambitions. So did every single Ottoman Sultan, by definition. But it is news that Erdogan has such ambitions, because the Kemalist state was founded on their explicit renunciation.

Do you understand?
 
phildwyer said:
Pickman's, it's hardly news that Enver Pasha had pan-Turkic ambitions. So did every single Ottoman Sultan, by definition. But it is news that Erdogan has such ambitions, because the Kemalist state was founded on their explicit renunciation.

Do you understand?
Click to expand...
my point stands. i don't know why you want to make a big deal of it and piss on this thread, although i have my suspicions, and if that carries on i don't suppose it have a happy ending.

the old rules in the middle east are gone. erdogan knows that as do isis. so the old kemalist diktat no longer has the force it held.
 
phildwyer said:
You don't have a point.
Click to expand...
contradiction famously not argument. i do have a point, that the last time a prominent turk (enver pasha not of course ruler of turkey when he led the army of islam) tried to establish a pan-turkic empire it "ended in tears" and i suggested, by implication, that any contemporary attempt now would similarly fail bloodily.

let's move on unless you really really want to continue this.
 
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Of course erdogan thinks he's a threat, given that the refah party bureaucracy prior to the formation of the AKP had been so scarred after the events of february 1997. He had no choice but to turn to gülen. And now he can't cope with his own party bureaucracy.

That's different from saying Gülen's a tangible threat, though... Likely he has ambitions. But the question is do these ambitions matter? And at the moment, no.
 
Erdoğan's just like his idiotic mentor Necmettin Erbakan. Believes that turks are the rightful rulers of the islamic world and an anti-semite to boot. Wouldn't be so hilarious if he wasn't of ethnic Georgian origin. The only difference between the two (and this is an important one, otherwise you can't understand turkish politics) is that Erdoğan doesn't believe in the just order and regulated markets alongside vague Owenite murmurings on distribution. This is why the majority of the old millî Görüş crowd today support Erdoğan with reservations.

Were it not for the utter incompetence of the secular opposition and the bellicose rhetoric of the fascists Erdoğan would have no chance. absolutely none at all. I'm not saying the AKP, but Erdoğan himself. He is hands down one of the few politicians in the world that allows his emotions to rule him.
 
dialectician said:
Of course erdogan thinks he's a threat, given that the refah party bureaucracy prior to the formation of the AKP had been so scarred after the events of february 1997. He had no choice but to turn to gülen. And now he can't cope with his own party bureaucracy.

That's different from saying Gülen's a tangible threat, though... Likely he has ambitions. But the question is do these ambitions matter? And at the moment, no.
Click to expand...

I don't think you're aware of how deep or wide his influence runs, especially in the education system and in the police. He personally won't be around forever, but he'll leave a well-funded and highly ambitious organization behind him. He's a threat alright.

Then again, a fight between him and Erdogan might damage both of them, which would be excellent news.
 
dialectician said:
Were it not for the utter incompetence of the secular opposition and the bellicose rhetoric of the fascists Erdoğan would have no chance. absolutely none at all. I'm not saying the AKP, but Erdoğan himself. He is hands down one of the few politicians in the world that allows his emotions to rule him.
Click to expand...

That's exactly why his followers love him. He's like Trump in that regard--all the things about him that horrify liberals delight his own supporters. And there's no denying that he's given a voice to people who were ignored by the CHP, and they understandably revere him for that. I've never encountered a politician who was so vehemently loved and hated at the same time.
 
phildwyer said:
I don't think you're aware of how deep or wide his influence runs, especially in the education system and in the police. He personally won't be around forever, but he'll leave a well-funded and highly ambitious organization behind him. He's a threat alright.

Then again, a fight between him and Erdogan might damage both of them, which would be excellent news.
Click to expand...

Tightening the noose, phil. It was the AKP that was primarily comprised of his followers. It was the AKP that converted the turkish state bureaucracy into a puppet for their islamist ambitions. At the moment Erdoğan fighting with Gülen only means one thing: that he is fighting with himself.

This idea that the AKP is an independent body from Gülenısts, Millî görüş and even the old ülkücü fascists is a myth. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. The fact is, whether you like it or not, literally the only way the AKP was able to appeal to the economic w/c is through religious demagogy and democratic philistinism. It is still why he gets the votes.
 
dialectician said:
Tightening the noose, phil. It was the AKP that was primarily comprised of his followers. It was the AKP that converted the turkish state bureaucracy into a puppet for their islamist ambitions. At the moment Erdoğan fighting with Gülen only means one thing: that he is fighting with himself.

This idea that the AKP is an independent body from Gülenısts, Millî görüş and even the old ülkücü fascists is a myth. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. The fact is, whether you like it or not, literally the only way the AKP was able to appeal to the economic w/c is through religious demagogy and democratic philistinism. It is still why he gets the votes.
Click to expand...

That's why the comparison between Erdogan and Dubya is so apt, they use religion in the same way, and to appeal to the same demographic.

Gulen´s power is hard to quantify, because so much of his movement is covert. It´s a bit like the Freemasons actually. But loads of influential people adhere to him, and he´s evidently seriously rich. He has a parallel education system as well.
 
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