Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Turkey, ISIS, Kurds and Syria

I didn't say there were loads of them, and (if the footage is genuine) here is one being used.
Sure, you said stocks though i.e more than one. But the PKK in SE turkey. The pkk has been under attack for 6 months now - they'd have used all they could to down those copters already. That they didn't fire any suggest that they didn't have any. No they have fired one it suggests a new channel to have supplied them. In whose interests is it to tell turkey to back off or they'll ensure that this happens again and over and over?
 
However there are allegations that limited transfers of MANPADS from Qatar and Saudi Arabia to various Syrian rebel groups have occurred (Schmitt, 2013). As such, there are two primary methods through which non-state actors in Syria acquire MANPADS: purchasing them on the black market and through directly capturing them from other groups (whether that is other non-state actors or the Syrian Government). Groups can also acquire MANPADS through direct transfers from governments, however this is a fairly rare occurrence. The vast majority of MANPADS are acquired through capturing them (mostly from the Syrian Government). However proliferation is also an important factor given the immense number of MANPADS that are available on the black market due to instability in the MENA and Sub-Saharan Africa.

The cost of MANPADS on the black market is very variable with estimates as low as $5,000 for a SA-7 to $160,000 for a Stinger (Buongiorno and Schroeder, 2010)./QUOTE]

The manpad used by old matey in the PKK was a SA-18.

sa-18-launch-tube-with-gripstock-and-bcu.png


For all your manpad needs...

MANPADS in the Syrian Civil War
 
Hence the massive use them over the last 5 years. Oh.

And thanks for the link to an article written 5 months before the firing happened and that refers to a different conflict,
 
So, there's no relation whatsoever between what's happening in Turkey and Syria?
Yes, that's right. None at all. In fact, you should ignore the fact that it was the pkk that used it and that it was in se turkey. Because nothing matters, they're available all day every day and your stupid question.
 
What would you do if you were Kurdish inside Turkey's borders?

send an email to the Russian Embassy in Ankara saying 'you remember the Turks shot down your SU-24, well, if you can send us some SA-18's, we'll even the score up for you..'?

as butchersapron has written, this conflict is marked by the proflagrate use of every weapon to hand - if the PKK had had them down the back of the sofa they'd have used them 6 months ago. that they did not suggests that the PKK has a new patron. i wonder who that could be...

much more definative than some peple on the internet is an analysis of the video: you are watching a $20m helicopter, used for 20 years by one of the most well funded militaries in NATO, fly low and slow over a warzone on its own - no escort, no top cover - if the Turks were used to being shot at with MANPADS, do you think they would operate in this way?

the missile firing crew looked, to me, trained but unpracticed. some of the things were a bit slow, a bit 'hammed up', but perfect. too much training to rush it or get flustered, not enough practice to do it all in a fluid motion without doing the 'talk through' thing. the counting down out loud to firing was an obvious 'keep calm, keep calm, just like we practiced, its just a drill, we've done this fifty times this morning' line.

its also worth noting that the helicopter - its an AH-1W Super Cobra by the way, bought and built in the early 1990's - didn't appear to use any automatic defence aid systems (chaff, flares, lasers, balloons etc..) - these are now fairly ubiquitous on modern western attack and battlefield support helicopters like Apache, Chinook, Merlin, Blackhawk etc. if these systems aren't fitted to the Turkish AH-1W's, then that suggests the Turks don't think they need them - though they can certainly afford them, though they are by no stretch of the imagination cheap - if their AH-1W's were being shot at on a regular basis, they would have them.
 
Any significance to this happening while there are complex US/Turkey negotiations going on around the direction and support of the next operation for the YPG/J...? Seems like not the most diplomatic timing from the PKK.
 
Any significance to this happening while there are complex US/Turkey negotiations going on around the direction and support of the next operation for the YPG/J...? Seems like not the most diplomatic timing from the PKK.

almost certainly a far more politics orientated question than i feel comfortable answering, but i think in general there is probably a wild over-confidence in the idea that donors/patrons/whatever can achieve this or that result, or this or that timing, by simply turning the taps on or off as suits their purposes.

that said, if some kind soul donates 2 dozen SA-18 launchers and 100 missiles with training manuals, videos and practice rounds (all of which would fit into any lorry that every haulage firm in the country operate..) to a group hard pressed by air attack then there will be a result in short order, but controlling that, or steering it, or directing the timing from one week to the next looks like an impossible job to me.

have the PKK, or affiliated groups had any success against either pro-Assad, or anti-Assad forces recently? SA-18, in its several marks, has been in the armouries of the Assad government for decades - its quite possible that they have been captured rather than supplied, and being strictly fair, i can imagine that old Vlad the Invader wouldn't be that keen on passing on a truck full of MANPADS to people he has no real control over for exactly the same reasons as anyone else..
 
  • Like
Reactions: LDC
send an email to the Russian Embassy in Ankara saying 'you remember the Turks shot down your SU-24, well, if you can send us some SA-18's, we'll even the score up for you..'?

as butchersapron has written, this conflict is marked by the proflagrate use of every weapon to hand - if the PKK had had them down the back of the sofa they'd have used them 6 months ago. that they did not suggests that the PKK has a new patron. i wonder who that could be...

much more definative than some peple on the internet is an analysis of the video: you are watching a $20m helicopter, used for 20 years by one of the most well funded militaries in NATO, fly low and slow over a warzone on its own - no escort, no top cover - if the Turks were used to being shot at with MANPADS, do you think they would operate in this way?

the missile firing crew looked, to me, trained but unpracticed. some of the things were a bit slow, a bit 'hammed up', but perfect. too much training to rush it or get flustered, not enough practice to do it all in a fluid motion without doing the 'talk through' thing. the counting down out loud to firing was an obvious 'keep calm, keep calm, just like we practiced, its just a drill, we've done this fifty times this morning' line.

its also worth noting that the helicopter - its an AH-1W Super Cobra by the way, bought and built in the early 1990's - didn't appear to use any automatic defence aid systems (chaff, flares, lasers, balloons etc..) - these are now fairly ubiquitous on modern western attack and battlefield support helicopters like Apache, Chinook, Merlin, Blackhawk etc. if these systems aren't fitted to the Turkish AH-1W's, then that suggests the Turks don't think they need them - though they can certainly afford them, though they are by no stretch of the imagination cheap - if their AH-1W's were being shot at on a regular basis, they would have them.

They may well be supplied by Russia but that is an assumption. If you read the article you would see where most manpads are sourced. It's more likely they've chored or bought them.
 
two snippets from the deceitful, the gullable and the ignorant...



the problem however is that its a CH-46 Sea Knight helicopter, a type never operated by Turkey, and retired from US service in 2015. the video is from Iraq in 2007...



this is from, apparently, a respected news service. to prove the story, they have, for some reason, decided to tweet a picture of a pair of German Tornado IDS strike aircraft. again, a type never operated by Turkey...
 
Last edited:
i've tried tidying the above up, but i'm shit, so please excuse the mess...

E2A: cheers to teqniq for dragging me into the 20th century...
 
Last edited:
Just to remind people this thread is specifically for discussions about the relations/manouveres/whatever between the turkish state/kurds/ISIS/syria.
 
Back
Top Bottom